All these ideas about how they should build the new Champ may be pointless. I may be full of hot air here but I believe that an aircraft in the LSA catagory cannot be modified in any way unless done by the manufacturer. Anyone know?
Keith
New Champ article in AOPA magazine
Few counter points.
Maybe you cannot modify an ASTM build airplane, I believe. The new Champ is a 7EC with a standard airworthiness. Thus, you can do what you want to it...of course going throuh the proper channels (FAA, 337s, etc). This also complicates kits and parts. Without a data plate, everything is just spare parts. To get that data plate you need approved data and a production approval.
In '08 we will be going a step to the 'load it up' option. I am going to list the weight behind each option. 600x6 is going to the option list....there is 12 lbs right there. (For example)
For liability, we will not make an airplane that does not have a starter. If you have a battery circuit, you might as well charge it. If you have a charging circuit, you might as well have an electrical system; its not much more after the alternator.
You say a hand held? Well, they seem to be all going out with a Garmin 496. You are severely limiting where you can go with no transponder on a newly registered airplane. Especially places that have lots of people who have money...
You know covering in cotton was very light. I bet thats 15-20 lbs. Of course I am not sure you want to recover a cotton airplane every 5 years these days. Would be cheaper to buy a Meridian...spelling...fine a Cirrus.
You have to also take into account what we are able to build. If it deviates too much from the other airplanes, the cost to build it will go up.
If you strip the airplane down, how could that be more appealing? Its not going to drop the price by any significant amount. Its not like a car where you can save a lot by buying the stripped down version. There, the vehicle depreciates at a rapid pace and the intent is to drive the wheels off the cheap car and sell it to a broke college student when you are done. With an airplane it should be worth what you paid for it in like 5 years. We have seen in out 18 years of making them...stripped planes don't.
Primarily, we chose to load the champ up a certain way, then have a short option list to save money on all the posible customizations. This makes them easier to build since the guy just robotically makes a champ instead of an "8KCAB with one electric gyro and one vacuum driven gyro and only use the sigmatek vacuum pump but get me a BF Goodrich DG and I prefer the that the vacuum driven set have a toggle for when I do acro...now that I got those two holes covered...I want...." (I made that one up Joe). Additionally, we have to have all these posibilities on drawings too. Which is a pain when you attach required items to pieces, like placards.
Maybe you cannot modify an ASTM build airplane, I believe. The new Champ is a 7EC with a standard airworthiness. Thus, you can do what you want to it...of course going throuh the proper channels (FAA, 337s, etc). This also complicates kits and parts. Without a data plate, everything is just spare parts. To get that data plate you need approved data and a production approval.
In '08 we will be going a step to the 'load it up' option. I am going to list the weight behind each option. 600x6 is going to the option list....there is 12 lbs right there. (For example)
For liability, we will not make an airplane that does not have a starter. If you have a battery circuit, you might as well charge it. If you have a charging circuit, you might as well have an electrical system; its not much more after the alternator.
You say a hand held? Well, they seem to be all going out with a Garmin 496. You are severely limiting where you can go with no transponder on a newly registered airplane. Especially places that have lots of people who have money...
You know covering in cotton was very light. I bet thats 15-20 lbs. Of course I am not sure you want to recover a cotton airplane every 5 years these days. Would be cheaper to buy a Meridian...spelling...fine a Cirrus.
You have to also take into account what we are able to build. If it deviates too much from the other airplanes, the cost to build it will go up.
If you strip the airplane down, how could that be more appealing? Its not going to drop the price by any significant amount. Its not like a car where you can save a lot by buying the stripped down version. There, the vehicle depreciates at a rapid pace and the intent is to drive the wheels off the cheap car and sell it to a broke college student when you are done. With an airplane it should be worth what you paid for it in like 5 years. We have seen in out 18 years of making them...stripped planes don't.
Primarily, we chose to load the champ up a certain way, then have a short option list to save money on all the posible customizations. This makes them easier to build since the guy just robotically makes a champ instead of an "8KCAB with one electric gyro and one vacuum driven gyro and only use the sigmatek vacuum pump but get me a BF Goodrich DG and I prefer the that the vacuum driven set have a toggle for when I do acro...now that I got those two holes covered...I want...." (I made that one up Joe). Additionally, we have to have all these posibilities on drawings too. Which is a pain when you attach required items to pieces, like placards.
Jerry Jr @ ACA
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
I can still fit TWO suitcases in the trunk, even if I buy the super-fancy model car!
I, for one, would be more likely to buy a stripped version. I AM going to take all that crap out and off of any airplane I have. If I could get the plane crap-free, save a couple bucks, then save a BUNCH of time trying to remove junk and plug the holes it left behind, I'd be one happy camper.
(Taken 2 days ago). 4000 feet, short and rough, with a dead caribou to get off in a 15kt direct crosswind the next morning. Please consider this my vote for a lightweight option.
I, for one, would be more likely to buy a stripped version. I AM going to take all that crap out and off of any airplane I have. If I could get the plane crap-free, save a couple bucks, then save a BUNCH of time trying to remove junk and plug the holes it left behind, I'd be one happy camper.
(Taken 2 days ago). 4000 feet, short and rough, with a dead caribou to get off in a 15kt direct crosswind the next morning. Please consider this my vote for a lightweight option.
-
big chief 48
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 23:57
- Location: Duluth MN.
- Contact:
champs
not to get anyone mad, but a few of my thoughts..... It all depends on what you are going to do with your plane. If you are someone who lives near a large town, then you need avionics. (radio etc.) If you live somewhere more remote, then you are less likely to need these things. I live in Duluth mn. pop 96.000 or more, so its is not the bush, but I have not used a radio in 15 or more years. I do NOT want to go where I need a radio, so my needs are different. What I think people have been trying to say delicately, is that most people that drive champs/chiefs do not really need/want all the "stuff". All it does, is break down and cost more at annual. So yes, I think there is a bigger market then you think for "stripped" down models.
Kind of my thoughts. I do have a hand held radio that works just fine, thank you and also a 'el cheapo' Garmin GPS that will get me from point A to point B with a minimum of hassle. They are not 'installed' so technicially not part of the W & B. On the other hand, I do understand the need for a starting and charging system for liability (I hate that word) purposes. I'd rather not swing my prop if I didn't have to. Especially when the ##***## engine floods. I'd also like to have around 3.5 or 4 hours of fuel. If there were power plugs 'factory installed' on the new Champ that would possibly eliminate the need for a installed radio most of which are about as dependable as a rubber crutch.
On the other hand, even if a stripped down plane cost say $50,000 I can't justify buying it, much as I'd like to. Hopefully, there will be some that will buy the new Champs. Anyway, keep plugging away, Jerry. We still love the Champs no matter
.
Mike Berg
On the other hand, even if a stripped down plane cost say $50,000 I can't justify buying it, much as I'd like to. Hopefully, there will be some that will buy the new Champs. Anyway, keep plugging away, Jerry. We still love the Champs no matter
.Mike Berg
"If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money"
Same here. I fly a jet for a living and for fun the last thing I want nor need is a "fun airplane" full of avionics. I use the handheld radio to get in and out of my local airport then turn the thing off and just fly.
An Aeronca, other than the Sedan, for me is a fun airplane and not one that is going to be used to do long cross county flights needing GPS or a radio. Only exception would be going to a fly-in like Middletown or such so for me a stripped down airplane makes more sense. Oh, and I vote with my wallet...
An Aeronca, other than the Sedan, for me is a fun airplane and not one that is going to be used to do long cross county flights needing GPS or a radio. Only exception would be going to a fly-in like Middletown or such so for me a stripped down airplane makes more sense. Oh, and I vote with my wallet...
Anyone is free to buy one almost completely gutted. You just have to order it that way.
I am just telling you it wont save a ton of cash...at least talking in terms of percent. But then 1% is a Thousand Dollars, so I guess its relative.
Also, no dealer is going to spec it out that way.
'cigarette lighter' style power jacks have a place set aside in the panel on the right side. Someone just has to say "I want one"
Edit:
or two
I am just telling you it wont save a ton of cash...at least talking in terms of percent. But then 1% is a Thousand Dollars, so I guess its relative.
Also, no dealer is going to spec it out that way.
'cigarette lighter' style power jacks have a place set aside in the panel on the right side. Someone just has to say "I want one"
Edit:
or two
Jerry Jr @ ACA
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
Understood completely, Jerry and as a manufacturer you have to meet governement regulations and also what the general public wants. I just think some of the guys are trying to make the point that a 'stripped' Champ would be more useful to them rather than a plushed up model and if they can buy them that way, then they have no real argument.
Cost of ownership is one of the reasons I sold my Cherokee 140 and kept my Champ even if the Champ is somewhat useless for much cross country. If it wasn't a radio going bad, it was time for the transponder check (and it was out of specs). Or a gyro was petering out to the tune of $500 or some silly AD that was recinded after I already complied with it at a cost of several hundred dollars.
On my soapbox here and off the subject, but I wonder how auto owners would react if they had to put up with all the cost and hassle aircraft owners do. I can't remember the last time I had a $200 bill for car repair, although I do much of my own maintenance, whereas I need to have a IA/AP involved on my aircraft to be legal. Sometimes a homebuilt looks real inviting......(sometimes)
.
Mike Berg
Cost of ownership is one of the reasons I sold my Cherokee 140 and kept my Champ even if the Champ is somewhat useless for much cross country. If it wasn't a radio going bad, it was time for the transponder check (and it was out of specs). Or a gyro was petering out to the tune of $500 or some silly AD that was recinded after I already complied with it at a cost of several hundred dollars.
On my soapbox here and off the subject, but I wonder how auto owners would react if they had to put up with all the cost and hassle aircraft owners do. I can't remember the last time I had a $200 bill for car repair, although I do much of my own maintenance, whereas I need to have a IA/AP involved on my aircraft to be legal. Sometimes a homebuilt looks real inviting......(sometimes)
. Mike Berg
"If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money"
You must do a lot of your own car work.
Hard to get out of a Dealership for less than $200 unles you got warranty. I popped a tire on my new mini-van....left the dealer $150 poorer in under 45 mins.
Maybe we should sell extended warranty? lol
Hard to get out of a Dealership for less than $200 unles you got warranty. I popped a tire on my new mini-van....left the dealer $150 poorer in under 45 mins.
Maybe we should sell extended warranty? lol
Jerry Jr @ ACA
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
WW - I didn't shoot it, but it died by rifle from well within bow range.
Did I mention that was two people, a dead caribou, and a crosswind?
Jerry - first, thanks for hanging out here and explaining these things. It's not as much fun as wild unfounded speculation, but....
Is the electrical system an option? Do you know what it might weigh with no interior (or fabric, if that's an option), no electrics, no gyros, etc? The question is, can it be MADE to 7AC + bigger motor weights, or are there - I dunno - Citabria parts hanging around in there or something??
Did I mention that was two people, a dead caribou, and a crosswind?
Jerry - first, thanks for hanging out here and explaining these things. It's not as much fun as wild unfounded speculation, but....
Is the electrical system an option? Do you know what it might weigh with no interior (or fabric, if that's an option), no electrics, no gyros, etc? The question is, can it be MADE to 7AC + bigger motor weights, or are there - I dunno - Citabria parts hanging around in there or something??
I find this thread to be very interesting, I for one if buying a new aircraft would not want a stripped down plane like the old 7AC. My Champ was converted to a 7DC then had 100 hp Cont installed then stripped of the electrical system, the interior the carpeting the windshield post fairings etc. I have since reinstalled the electrical system (just battery starter generator and a beacon), I have a hard wired handheld radio, Garmin GPS an intercom, I don't need the carpeting or the nice interior side walls(but they would be nice. I have replaced all the fairings: windshield posts, upper strut and at the top of the leg legs.
I don't care that with full fuel my plane is bacisly a single seat plane 99.6% of the time I fly solo, if I want to take my grandkids or son's or daughter or the better half for a flt the plane does not need 26 gals of fuel for a fun flt.
Its interesting to read how folks want a stripped down model like a 7AC then want Lycoming engines, giant wheels & tires hydraulic brakes radios transponders starters and generators skylights big good cabin heaters rear seat heaters and the list goes on. If you doubt it just check the postings.
I have been a Super Cub guy most of the past 30 years but I always liked the 7GCBC as it was faster and had 10 times nicer interior and easier to get in or out of.
Just my $.02
I don't care that with full fuel my plane is bacisly a single seat plane 99.6% of the time I fly solo, if I want to take my grandkids or son's or daughter or the better half for a flt the plane does not need 26 gals of fuel for a fun flt.
Its interesting to read how folks want a stripped down model like a 7AC then want Lycoming engines, giant wheels & tires hydraulic brakes radios transponders starters and generators skylights big good cabin heaters rear seat heaters and the list goes on. If you doubt it just check the postings.
I have been a Super Cub guy most of the past 30 years but I always liked the 7GCBC as it was faster and had 10 times nicer interior and easier to get in or out of.
Just my $.02
Last edited by Mnflyer on Mon Oct 08, 2007 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
GB MN.Flyer
Flying a Champ 7DC and a HKS Kitfox III
Flying a Champ 7DC and a HKS Kitfox III
Hooray to ACA!!! They are taking the chance to recreate a new version of an airplane in which my father learned to fly and in which I first rode at 6 months of age on my mother's lap. What a noble venture! What remarkable reverence for a classic design! Not only does the Champ live on beyond countless others, it is still evolving.
Jimbo
PS: Keep makin' those Citabrias, too - they are the Labrador retrievers of airplanes.
Jimbo
PS: Keep makin' those Citabrias, too - they are the Labrador retrievers of airplanes.
-
Bill Bussel
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 14:13
- Location: Logan, Ohio
- Contact:
website
[q
I realize you have a lot of other things to do then answer all the questions about whatever, however when you have time, is the website you mention the regular ACA site or do you have another one? If so, where?
Thanks for your answers on the new Champ.
Bill
Jerry,(It shows, see my website)
I realize you have a lot of other things to do then answer all the questions about whatever, however when you have time, is the website you mention the regular ACA site or do you have another one? If so, where?
Thanks for your answers on the new Champ.
Bill
Bill/Ann/48