Wow, lots more replies than I expected. Thanks for the replies, lots of good info here.
Like I said, I have no plans of trying it without proper instruction. I was with a friend a couple of weeks in his RV 8, and we did a couple. I was amazed how smooth it was, and it got me wondering about the champ.
Thanks for the info.
Aileron roll???
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Nathan K. Hammond
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Jody, I'm game. Hopefully we can take mine. 
David; At first I didn't like getting slow on top and kept a little speed and positive G, so I'd do more of a hard climbing/diving turn with full rudder over the top. I dove for a speed, maybe 85-90mph, did a pull up, and imediately started a left turn with the rudder and aileron. I held the pull a little too long and ended up going past vertical as the nose was coming around. That put me about 100'-110' of roll with the nose really high (because I was doing a wingover). I was holding full left (bottom) rudder to swing the nose around, but held right (top) stick to keep it from rolling to the left, because I was carring the extra speed.
If I had been slower, or hadn't pulled past vertical, I wouldn't have had a problem. But I did, and there I was; nose high, running out of airspeed, full power and crossed controlled. With the nose coming down but still 10' high, it snapped over to the left and the nose fell through. It made a full turn, before I got the power off and started to recover. The crazy part about all this: the weekend before, I had done spin training with Clay in the Cub so recovery was fresh in my mind.
Mark, I think it's a great idea and we can let it run on this thread, since it's already started. If someone was going to get into acro, reading Duane Cole's book, Roll Around A Point and Conquest of Lines and Symmetry are excellent. Straight forward and too the point; if he can say it in one sentence, he does. I read these over and over, and probably kept me alive through my first incident.
nkh
David; At first I didn't like getting slow on top and kept a little speed and positive G, so I'd do more of a hard climbing/diving turn with full rudder over the top. I dove for a speed, maybe 85-90mph, did a pull up, and imediately started a left turn with the rudder and aileron. I held the pull a little too long and ended up going past vertical as the nose was coming around. That put me about 100'-110' of roll with the nose really high (because I was doing a wingover). I was holding full left (bottom) rudder to swing the nose around, but held right (top) stick to keep it from rolling to the left, because I was carring the extra speed.
If I had been slower, or hadn't pulled past vertical, I wouldn't have had a problem. But I did, and there I was; nose high, running out of airspeed, full power and crossed controlled. With the nose coming down but still 10' high, it snapped over to the left and the nose fell through. It made a full turn, before I got the power off and started to recover. The crazy part about all this: the weekend before, I had done spin training with Clay in the Cub so recovery was fresh in my mind.
Mark, I think it's a great idea and we can let it run on this thread, since it's already started. If someone was going to get into acro, reading Duane Cole's book, Roll Around A Point and Conquest of Lines and Symmetry are excellent. Straight forward and too the point; if he can say it in one sentence, he does. I read these over and over, and probably kept me alive through my first incident.
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Jim,jimboe wrote: After reading David Johnson's post about the pitfalls of rolls I'm inclined to skip them. It seems like doing them in a 60-year-old airplane is like kayaking an "easy class 5" rapid - it's not all that difficult, but if you screw up you'll get your ass beat.
Having had my ass beaten more than a few times in my boat, I'm determined not to let it happen in my Champ, ever. My strategy is to find out what things I can do that are fun and fairly forgiving (when I make mistakes).
Jimbo
Problem is that it may do more than "beat your ass" so to speak, it could kill you. Many of these old birds have had a difficult life and the tailcone area may not be in the best of condition from rust and so on.
Some of these maneuvers could result in the tail being overstressed and twisting or collapsing in flight. Considering that we all wear a parachute when doing things like this (yea right) you could just get out of the airplane while its flopping toward the ground (second yea right) and hopefully parachute to safety.
Again, there is a very good reason why I do not do acro in my 70 year old airplane. If I wanted to do this I would get in a newer airplane designed for acro and maintained to a higher standard, and wear a parachute while doing it. A Citabria comes to mind but truthfully a Pitts or like would be better, and 100% wearing a 'chute.
Really do not want to hear of someone practicing acro and its not turning out right (for whatever reason) and ending up in the newspaper or worse in the Obit section.
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marklamon
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I would like to get input from the high time/talented post war Champ drivers on proper entry/exit attitude/speeds/angle of bank and attack, including recovery. for:
Stalls
Power on
Power off
Spins
Wing overs
The following from L-16 flight manual section II para. 2-26 page 10
Slow Roll (not to exceed 85mph)
(is this a barrel roll?)
Vertical Bank (not to exceed 70 degrees)
(whats this? wingover?)
Snap Roll (not to exceed 85mph)
Half Roll
(what the heck?)
I think it would be good reading for all those who want to work on the basics.
Also for when we are wearing a chute and have a CFI with us doing manuvers that we need instruction for, it would be good preflight breifing material.
I know that we are dealing with an aging fleet, and each should use their own judjment.
(I punch tested my entire fuse tubing at 1inch intervals and had to replace alot, and have fresh wings, but I still won't snap) Mark
Stalls
Power on
Power off
Spins
Wing overs
The following from L-16 flight manual section II para. 2-26 page 10
Slow Roll (not to exceed 85mph)
(is this a barrel roll?)
Vertical Bank (not to exceed 70 degrees)
(whats this? wingover?)
Snap Roll (not to exceed 85mph)
Half Roll
(what the heck?)
I think it would be good reading for all those who want to work on the basics.
Also for when we are wearing a chute and have a CFI with us doing manuvers that we need instruction for, it would be good preflight breifing material.
I know that we are dealing with an aging fleet, and each should use their own judjment.
(I punch tested my entire fuse tubing at 1inch intervals and had to replace alot, and have fresh wings, but I still won't snap)
Mark-
Roger Anderson
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- Contact:
Mark,
My opinion...I seriously doubt that anyone of those on here that have looped, rolled, spun, and so forth a Champ, really ever had a formal introduction to those manuvers in a Champ. I'm guessing that a regimented approach (specific numbers, military type specifics) were never published by anyone. I think the Army Air Corps L-16 manual would be as good as you will find. I don't think there are any "old timers" left that instructed in Champs to that level. I'm guessing that I'm a typical situation in that my very limited acro instruction was in a Citabria. Anything I have since attempted in an Aeronca (and I don't anymore) has been a self inflicted, trial and error approach to unusual attitudes. About the last truely Aeronca proficient, "could do anything with it...and did" CFI's I knew, I think were pretty old in the 60s. And of course, I may be completely wrong. roger
My opinion...I seriously doubt that anyone of those on here that have looped, rolled, spun, and so forth a Champ, really ever had a formal introduction to those manuvers in a Champ. I'm guessing that a regimented approach (specific numbers, military type specifics) were never published by anyone. I think the Army Air Corps L-16 manual would be as good as you will find. I don't think there are any "old timers" left that instructed in Champs to that level. I'm guessing that I'm a typical situation in that my very limited acro instruction was in a Citabria. Anything I have since attempted in an Aeronca (and I don't anymore) has been a self inflicted, trial and error approach to unusual attitudes. About the last truely Aeronca proficient, "could do anything with it...and did" CFI's I knew, I think were pretty old in the 60s. And of course, I may be completely wrong. roger
Joe wrote:
"If I wanted to do this I would get in a newer airplane designed for acro and maintained to a higher standard, and wear a parachute while doing it."
Ok, Joe. I'm going to heed your advice about the frailty of my classic airpane and try this instead:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=016_1192560895
Jimbo
"If I wanted to do this I would get in a newer airplane designed for acro and maintained to a higher standard, and wear a parachute while doing it."
Ok, Joe. I'm going to heed your advice about the frailty of my classic airpane and try this instead:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=016_1192560895
Jimbo
Jim,
I parachute for a hobby and aint gonna try what they were doing. Have picked up too many people after they tried to push the limits (flew medivac for 15+ years) and from the video in your post they will "buy the farm" someday.
One of the guys came within 2-3 meters of hitting the mountain several times and all it is going to take is a slight gust of wind and its over. It was a nice video but I cringed several times hoping that they made it out ok.
Sorry but I love life too much to push the limits to this point. Have done it earlier in life and do not need to now.
Joe
I parachute for a hobby and aint gonna try what they were doing. Have picked up too many people after they tried to push the limits (flew medivac for 15+ years) and from the video in your post they will "buy the farm" someday.
One of the guys came within 2-3 meters of hitting the mountain several times and all it is going to take is a slight gust of wind and its over. It was a nice video but I cringed several times hoping that they made it out ok.
Sorry but I love life too much to push the limits to this point. Have done it earlier in life and do not need to now.
Joe
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Nathan K. Hammond
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Mark, while I'm no 'Talented Champ Driver'; I can say I've been there done that.
Power off Stalls: slow to 60mph, idle power, hold the nose on the horizon and don't lose altitude. You'll feel a buffet and that’s about it; they really don't drop the nose or wing. If you want to have fun; do a power off stall and then dance the rudders back and forth, often referred to as a "Falling Leaf." John Mohr makes it look great in his Stearman!
Power On Stalls: slow to 60mph, increase to full power and bring the nose up about 20-30 degrees and hold it. When you feel the buffet, recover, or hold it and the nose will drop a little then raise back up and buffet again. Keep it straight with you feet, because the ailerons don't work well below 40mph.
Spins: Slow to 60mph, idle power, hold the stick back and as soon as it buffets, full left/right rudder. Neutralize the stick and opposite rudder to recover, it can take 1/2 turn to stop the rotation. When the rotation stops, immediately bring the nose up to level. (This is were many run into problems, letting too much speed develop after stopping the spin and slowing raising the nose.) Be ready to recover, because half the time a spiral will develop instead of a spin (indicated by an increase in speed. Standard unusual attitude recovery technique; power off, wings level, nose up.) Because of this, I tend to accelerate the stall on entry by 'briskly' pulling back when the speed is around 45+/-mph and leading with rudder before I get the buffet. Additionally I'll give it a shot of power at the same time to blow a little extra wind over the controls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJu2miLLlMk
Wing overs: Cruise Power and speed (85mph), soft pitch up about 30 degrees while starting a coordinated turn left/right. Essentially it's a climbing and diving turn with a max bank angle of 60 degree's. I keep Cruise Power throughout the maneuver, and once you're comfortable; entry/exit altitude will be the same. A good maneuver to practice as it teaches control harmony, and fineness.
Slow Rolls: All rolls in a champ are slow!
But yes, Barrel Rolls. Enter with a slight dive for speed, at 100mph do a soft pull up to 45' degrees and full left/right aileron and coordinated rudder. As you pass 180' the nose should fall through the horizon and speed should have bled down to 50mph or so. You'll recover about 30'-45' nose low and the speed around 100mph. (When I roll an airplane (regardless of Make), I try to keep positive G all the through, because I don't like hanging upside down yet. I have flown with others, in Champs, that push while inverted and it cause's weightlessness but not "Negative G's.")
Vertical Bank: see Wing Overs
Snap Rolls: see Spins. A snap roll is a horizontal spin. Enter the same, but recover when the nose has rotated 270' or 3/4 ways around. Understand an airplane can snap roll at any speed, the key is increasing the angle of attack so the wing stalls. But above __x__ speed, damage can occur. And a common misconception has the wing as the weak point, but this is WRONG. The tail, generally, will fail first if an airplane is over stressed. As you pull back on the stick, there is significant DOWN force on the horizontal, and if abused, the tail brace wires will fail. Which brings up another misconception: tail brace wire tension. The wires only need to be tight enough to hold things in place, when you pluck them there should be a low "Thummmmm" sound. Not a fast "Twang!" If you tighten the wires above the specified amount, you have decreased their working load, because of the added tension.
Parachutes: PRACTICE! Seriously, practice getting out of the airplane with your parachute on. Practice your exit strategy: door, headset, seat belt, exit, clear, pull. This needs to be engraved into your mind like stall recoveries are. I had a friend bail out, but forgot to unplug his helmet. His quote was "it felt like it ripped my head off [before the plug let go]." Sean Tucker had the same happen when he bailed, except he got hung up by the shoulder strap because he didn't clear it when undoing the belts. Practice!
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusi ... 649-1.html
nkh
Power off Stalls: slow to 60mph, idle power, hold the nose on the horizon and don't lose altitude. You'll feel a buffet and that’s about it; they really don't drop the nose or wing. If you want to have fun; do a power off stall and then dance the rudders back and forth, often referred to as a "Falling Leaf." John Mohr makes it look great in his Stearman!
Power On Stalls: slow to 60mph, increase to full power and bring the nose up about 20-30 degrees and hold it. When you feel the buffet, recover, or hold it and the nose will drop a little then raise back up and buffet again. Keep it straight with you feet, because the ailerons don't work well below 40mph.
Spins: Slow to 60mph, idle power, hold the stick back and as soon as it buffets, full left/right rudder. Neutralize the stick and opposite rudder to recover, it can take 1/2 turn to stop the rotation. When the rotation stops, immediately bring the nose up to level. (This is were many run into problems, letting too much speed develop after stopping the spin and slowing raising the nose.) Be ready to recover, because half the time a spiral will develop instead of a spin (indicated by an increase in speed. Standard unusual attitude recovery technique; power off, wings level, nose up.) Because of this, I tend to accelerate the stall on entry by 'briskly' pulling back when the speed is around 45+/-mph and leading with rudder before I get the buffet. Additionally I'll give it a shot of power at the same time to blow a little extra wind over the controls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJu2miLLlMk
Wing overs: Cruise Power and speed (85mph), soft pitch up about 30 degrees while starting a coordinated turn left/right. Essentially it's a climbing and diving turn with a max bank angle of 60 degree's. I keep Cruise Power throughout the maneuver, and once you're comfortable; entry/exit altitude will be the same. A good maneuver to practice as it teaches control harmony, and fineness.
Slow Rolls: All rolls in a champ are slow!
But yes, Barrel Rolls. Enter with a slight dive for speed, at 100mph do a soft pull up to 45' degrees and full left/right aileron and coordinated rudder. As you pass 180' the nose should fall through the horizon and speed should have bled down to 50mph or so. You'll recover about 30'-45' nose low and the speed around 100mph. (When I roll an airplane (regardless of Make), I try to keep positive G all the through, because I don't like hanging upside down yet. I have flown with others, in Champs, that push while inverted and it cause's weightlessness but not "Negative G's.")Vertical Bank: see Wing Overs
Snap Rolls: see Spins. A snap roll is a horizontal spin. Enter the same, but recover when the nose has rotated 270' or 3/4 ways around. Understand an airplane can snap roll at any speed, the key is increasing the angle of attack so the wing stalls. But above __x__ speed, damage can occur. And a common misconception has the wing as the weak point, but this is WRONG. The tail, generally, will fail first if an airplane is over stressed. As you pull back on the stick, there is significant DOWN force on the horizontal, and if abused, the tail brace wires will fail. Which brings up another misconception: tail brace wire tension. The wires only need to be tight enough to hold things in place, when you pluck them there should be a low "Thummmmm" sound. Not a fast "Twang!" If you tighten the wires above the specified amount, you have decreased their working load, because of the added tension.
Parachutes: PRACTICE! Seriously, practice getting out of the airplane with your parachute on. Practice your exit strategy: door, headset, seat belt, exit, clear, pull. This needs to be engraved into your mind like stall recoveries are. I had a friend bail out, but forgot to unplug his helmet. His quote was "it felt like it ripped my head off [before the plug let go]." Sean Tucker had the same happen when he bailed, except he got hung up by the shoulder strap because he didn't clear it when undoing the belts. Practice!
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusi ... 649-1.html
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
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David Johnson
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LOL....insanejimboe wrote:Joe wrote:
"If I wanted to do this I would get in a newer airplane designed for acro and maintained to a higher standard, and wear a parachute while doing it."
Ok, Joe. I'm going to heed your advice about the frailty of my classic airpane and try this instead:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=016_1192560895
Jimbo
Well, they are trying to remove themselves from the gene pool in a dynamic way....
At least no airplanes were hurt in the filming of this *splat* oops.
Jerry Jr @ ACA
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
Company DER
Consultant DER too! (7's and 8's only)
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Nathan K. Hammond
- Posts: 2371
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 00:22
- Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
- Contact:
David,
Maybe later; how about Middletown? The finger's growing back nicely, it should be healled up just in time to wack it again when I'm cutting spar's. 
Hey, I circled the shop today, did you hear me?
One thing I forgot to mention about how I progressed in acro. First I got several flights with competent instructors (certified and not) in several different airplanes; Citabria, J-3, Staudacher, and my Champ. We went through several manuvers and recovery's; the usual. But then comes the point where no one else is in the airplane, you've had the training and it's time to, do-it-to-it. It's hard to build up the nerve, so I started easy and worked myself up to it. Begining with dutch rolls, after I'd done a gazillion of those, moved to S turns, and then Lazy 8's. These are all good fundemental skills that get you ready for the fineness and coordination needed. After a while I started to increase the bank and pitch of the Lazy 8's until I was doing Wingovers. At that point, wingovers turned into Hammerhead's, and finally I figured I was going half way around, why not keep the the roll and pitch going to complete an actual roll.
Have fun and be smart/safe.
nkh
Maybe later; how about Middletown? The finger's growing back nicely, it should be healled up just in time to wack it again when I'm cutting spar's. Hey, I circled the shop today, did you hear me?
One thing I forgot to mention about how I progressed in acro. First I got several flights with competent instructors (certified and not) in several different airplanes; Citabria, J-3, Staudacher, and my Champ. We went through several manuvers and recovery's; the usual. But then comes the point where no one else is in the airplane, you've had the training and it's time to, do-it-to-it. It's hard to build up the nerve, so I started easy and worked myself up to it. Begining with dutch rolls, after I'd done a gazillion of those, moved to S turns, and then Lazy 8's. These are all good fundemental skills that get you ready for the fineness and coordination needed. After a while I started to increase the bank and pitch of the Lazy 8's until I was doing Wingovers. At that point, wingovers turned into Hammerhead's, and finally I figured I was going half way around, why not keep the the roll and pitch going to complete an actual roll.
Have fun and be smart/safe.
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
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David Johnson
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- Contact:
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David Johnson
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- Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 08:28
- Location: Jasper, Georgia
- Contact:
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Nathan K. Hammond
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