15AC Restoration Underway, Bent Spar Question

[esandberg]

Hi Everybody, I'm a newcomer to NAA & this site. I recently bought one of the Sedan projects that Brian Safran in Ohio is selling, and I've jumped right into it. (If you're considering a Sedan project, I highly recommend going through Brian. He's been extremely helpful getting this thing started)

I knew the wings were a little ratty, but now that I have the first one peeled open, I've discovered a bent spar and some moderate corrosion. It looks like the wing was in a groundloop and got dragged backwards across something like a steel fencepost. The bottom spar cap is ripped in two, torn off the bottom of the spar about 6 inches outboard of the lift fitting. The spar, while untorn, is undeniably wrinkled/bent.

Neither of the two A&P's that have offered help know exactly what direction to take. Our procedure question is...what to do with the spar. There might be an FAA-blessed procedure for repairing it but I'm not especially interested in patching something so fundamental as a wing spar. There's enough other corrosion in other places that I'd just as soon swap it out.

Have any of you other folks with more 15AC experience ever had to replace a spar? If so, how'd you go about it? (Univair doesn't have anything that would work).

Thanks!
Eric

[Louis]

Did you get ahold of Burl: http://www.burlac.com/ ?

He has the TC for the Sedan and that would be a very good starting point. I'll keep my eyes open for any good Sedan wings lying around. Good luck.....Louis

[esandberg]

Yes, I got ahold of Burl today, he was a great help. It looks like AD 43.13 covers the type of damage I have, it directs me to apply strengthening plates on the fore & aft sides of the spar web over the wrinkled metal in the spar, including the beam angles.

Burl told me that they just finished a repair similar to mine, somebody flipped a Sedan in a dry riverbed up North.

[G. William Morrise Sr.]

AH ! Aeronca Sedans - Too Few around. They ONLY built 565 of them with fewer than 300 either in work or Flying. Useable Parts, along with availablity ..... a REAL Big question... And F.A.A is in there somewhere ? The SEDAN is a wonderful Bird to fly WHEN ! Flyable. Parts
are extremely scarce .. and NOW with Burl Rogers going out of business 31 Dec. '07. Parts from there forward, will be NON -Existent anywhere.

I'm William Mor of Southern California. Have owned my Flyable Sedan
since 1953..., so I'm simply not NEW to this Aeronca business.

Rather sounds as if you've purchased a Pig 'n a Polk. My I wish you the Best of luck in geting your Sedan FLYING.

Most sincerely,

Bill (N1381H)

[joea]

Talk with Burl about it. Between Burl, Brian and this bulletin board bet that you can get a fix worked out.

[esandberg]

Thanks for the input. Yes, I'm in regular contact with Brian and Burl, and Burl has in fact said that he isn't producing any new parts after the end of the year. I think calling my Sedan project a scam, though, which is what 'Pig in a Poke' means, is a little much. Nobody tried to scam anybody, and Brian and Burl have bent over backwards getting me rolling on this project. If I'd wanted a spam can, I'd have opened Trade-a-Plane and bought a Mooney for which parts are readily available and has as much character and charm as a potato.

I rather suspect that as I work my way through this restoration in tandem with Brian's restoration(s) and whoever else I meet up with, I'll continue to find enough help to get certified. I don't know if I'll end up with a 180hp taxi on floats, but it's maybe a little defeatist to say that 'parts' are going to be 'nonexistant'. It's just going to be a little trickier because Burl can't make NEW parts.

Then again, Burl could get especially festive on New Year's Eve and change his mind...

[AV8R2]

OK, folks,

I'll try and explain this one more time;

I have several thousands of dollars of parts on the shelf that have been produced over the years. These parts are for sale, the PMA is still active, I AM STILL working on the spar drill templates (front and rear) and will have the spars that are ordered (prepaid) delivered within the next 45-60 days. Including your rear spar, Eric. You still haven't called me about the front spar yet.

These templates turned out to be a lot more work than I thought they would be but then that's what you get when you play with airplanes.

I have said this many times and I will repeat it here again: I do not want to stop supporting the Sedan. I CAN AND WILL change my mind if I can get some support from you owners.

Here is something for ALL of you to think about:

The FAA is on a "kill GA rampage". This is a very serious situation because they are coming up with a new "policy" or whatever they will call it, that will basically say that ANY AIRCRAFT THAT NO LONGER HAS COMPANY SUPPORT WILL HAVE ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE PULLED AND THOSE PLANES WILL BE GROUNDED PERMANENTLY.

All of you owners out there that have copies of Sedan drawings and have been making your own parts over the years are in a lot of potential danger because you ever got an approval of any kind for the parts that you have been making and installing. I would wager that less than 1% of you may have gotten approval.

This makes your Airworthiness Certificate worthless because when an unapproved part is installed on the aircraft it no longer meets it's Type Design thus VOIDING the Airworthiness Certificate. If you don't believe me, call your local friendly FAA Inspector.

Yes, you can make your own parts without a PMA, BUT THEY MUST BE APPROVED BY AN FAA BY A FIELD APPROVAL AND A 337 FORM OR COORDINATED APPROVAL THROUGH FAA ENGINEERING OR GET AN STC. HAVE YOU BEEN DOING THAT? I seriously doubt it.

I don't need a million dollars a month to run this show; I need enough to pay for what I produce and help make a living. If I was in this for the money I would never have bought the TC to begin with but I love the Sedan as much as anyone.

I am not "going out of business". I can't afford to, I have all these parts to pay for that have been and are BEING produced now. Plus we make parts for a lot of other aircraft; Cessna, Piper, DeHavilland, some for Fairchild 24, Grumman Wigeon, Bellanca, Citabria, Aviat Husky, and so on.

In about 2-3 weeks we will have a new prototype replacement fuel valve for the Sedan and put that problem to bed one and for all just like I did for the oil cooler problem.

How many of you still need the oil cooler data pack and still haven't ordered one? It is an unapproved installation without the cooler if you don't have a field approval or the data pack and testing done. Your plane can be grounded permanently.

If you have questions, call me instead of posting ridiculous assumptions on this site. If you want to know what all we do sell, call for a new updated catalog after the first of the year. All the Sedan parts will still be in there.

If you need something that we don't have listed, call me and we will discuss it.

I would appreciate it if you would give what I've said some serious thought. You are the ones that will lose the most. Like "Dusey" said, you will have some expensive planters in your front yards.


Burl

[bsafran]

There were more Champs and Chiefs built than Sedans, that's a sorry fact. I wish more 7AC and 11AC pilots could have an opportunity to fly a 15AC because they would find that it is the perfect 4 place taildragger. Once you fly a Sedan, you'll want to own a Sedan.

If you own a Sedan, you need Burl Rogers, it's as simple as that. Rubber bladder fuel tanks don't last long and have a screwy inspection tied to them. Burl's metal tanks fixed that. Bend a lift strut and where are you going to go to get a replacement? Burl has them. Try and find and oil cooler system to keep your airplane legal. Buy Burl's paperwork and those impossible to find parts are history! I think you get my point. If you have put an unapproved part on your Sedan to save money, enjoy your time flying your plane, because when it comes time to sell your pride and joy (or your estate has to sell it) it will be severely diminished in value.

Buy Burl's parts, enjoy the hell out of your airplane, and be thankful that there is someone who is sticking his neck out (and his wallet) to preserve a great airplane. I sold a Sedan project to a wonderful guy in Wisconsin. Who is standing behind that airplane and trying himn to get it flying again? Burl Rogers!

[joea]

I was in Zurich Switzerland yesterday and had lunch with Matt Sieber. We discussed the Sedan situation in depth and he trying to find all the Sedan owners worldwide. It would be interesting to see how many of them there are out there, and how many are still up in the air right now.

After this meeting I went online after spending a while on the internet found additional names and address listings for Matt and have forwarded this to him, so now he has about 300 total owners contact information. Would love to know how many of these are projects and how many are flying aircraft. I know of several that are in the air, but also know of 5 right now that are projects.

Know what you guys are talking about regarding "suspect parts" floating around in the aviation world. As an A&P I have very little latitude in this area and if it does not have a green or yellow tag on it, its not on my airplane.

Last thing I need to add is that I would love to become a Sedan owner myself. Love my Chief but while we were flying Gareth Gilson's Sedan to Wyoming several years ago to pick up my Chief I fell in love and if things get better in my work life (may be happening in a month if a deal I am working on comes together) am going to start looking for a Sedan. Might be time to trade up in life! Brian, still got those two projects left or are they what Eric purchased? I even bid on the Sedan on Ebay right now, but when it was under $20k. Do not have the funds right now but if a deal pops up could find a bit of money for the right airplane!

All for now but I am very interested in the Sedan situation. Wish I was closer to Alaska, and had some disposable funds available. Would buy part or all of what Burl is offering and keep the Sedan alive or just fall in formation and lend a hand!

[Matt]

As of today, an initial package of 224 paper letters regarding Burl's situation and the parts availability are on their way to all Sedan owners with a valid address listed on the FAA registry. They are supposed to reach their destinations, within 3 to 7 days. (Burl and Joe are getting one, too.)

I will address the Canadian owners, all European, possibly Brazilian and any others that I can locate, in January.

I hope to get something rolling and increase awareness with this, in the long run, by reaching more owners than us "few" who regularly visit or post on this forum. But to be honest, I doubt that it will cause a major change in attitude. We'll see...

Regards from Switzerland, Matt

[sedanpilot]

Given the theme of this thread, I would like to relay a story.

I bought a Sedan a few years ago with a bad engine. It took a lot of work, including major mount work and engine work, to get it back into the air, but it is now flying. As part of the process, the IA that was looking over the airplane noticed that the flying wires looked a little thin. Not knowing what right was, we called Burl who told us what the diameters should be. It turned out that someone in the past had swapped out the flying wires, and they were only about 60% of the strength they should have been. We got a new set from Burl and all was good, but it makes you wonder why they were on there to begin with. Given the time frame that it probably happened, Sedan flying wires were probably not available, so someone took it upon themselves to just “use something.” If one of them had failed in flight there is a pretty good chance that I would not have been writing now. There is a distinct possibility that Burl saved my life.

I, for one, really appreciate the fact that Burl is there. If he weren’t, our airplane would be worth a lot less, and in the end might not be flyable. If you think his prices are high, just look up Cessna 170 parts prices. People complain a lot about airplane parts prices, but these days, they are often cheaper than car prices and my IA doesn’t charge what my car mechanic does for his time. (Fuel injectors for a Toyota run $210 vs a Continental, $135)

(P.S. if you have a prop strike, don’t trust dialing the crank and calling it good. The one we pulled out of the engine above was fine on the dial indicator, but had a 180deg crack at the prop flange.)

[sedanpilot]

Hi Mat. I got your letter the other day and I thought you did a good job with it. (Is the airplane in the photo the one your are restoring? Ouch!)

I am currently restoring N4433N and flying 1354H. I have purchased a few thousand dollars worth of parts from Burl and currently have a spar on order for the restoration. (Tanks, Main Spar attach fitting, rear spar attach fitting, etc.) I am planning on doing the 180 HP kit, but that will have to wait until I am ready for that part of the project. I plan on continuing to support Burl by buying his parts. (All of which so far have worked well)

I figure that I will be buying parts a couple of thousand dollars a year until the restoration is ready for an engine, then I will probably sell 1354H and use the proceeds to finish 4433N. I also enjoy flying as well as working on airplanes and have kids, so it will be several years at the current rate to finish the job.

I hope that with my contribution to the pot and others, Burl can make it work. I really do hope that people will see the long term benifits to having someone like Burl there to serve the airplanes and when it comes to stuff like buying an STC instead of ripping off his work, they will do the honorable thing.

I could buy AeroShell at our local Wall Mart and save about 5 bucks a case. I buy it at the local airplane parts store at Merrill Field in Anchorage because Wall Mart won't be there to sell me a drilled head AN4-6 bolt when I really need one.

I know there are some of us that don't make much, and can barely afford to hold onto the airplane they have. Many of us in the Sedan comunity were initially attracted to the airplane because it is a really good airplane to let you get in the air and fly, and not break the bank. I still feel that every Sedan owner has a responisbility (as well as a legal obligation) to buy from approved sources. For us this is Burl.

If an apeal to peopls sence of what is right doesn't work, think about the value of your airplane if it becomes an orphaned TC and you can't get parts at any price. One part with a problem or a minor incident could ground your airplane and it's value would go from 40,000 or so to nearly zero.

[Matt]

Yes, that little picture of our Sedan was taken, after its last flight in 1981.
Thanks for your supporting post and good luck with your restoration!

Matt

[Muskokabob]

Matt, for your information, there are 39 registered SEDANS in Canada, I would estimate most of them are on floats.

Bob

[Matt]

Thanks, Muskokabob,

Joe found me a link to the Canadian registry which should help a lot. The only problem is that I just don't have the time to tackle it, right now. Hope, things get better in February. I will inform you all, when it is done.