What am I Missing?

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 22:37

How do those of you who restore your own airplanes rationalize the numbers?

I would love to find the proverbial "airplane in a barn" and restore it to tip top condition. To me, it would be great to have one of these classic two seaters that I know is in top shape. Also, I'd like the knowledge of the aircraft and the satisfaction that comes with doing all of the work myself. The airplane I'd like is a Chief or >ahem< Luscombe 8a (ragwing).

Unfortunately, the numbers on these projects just don't make sense as far as I can tell. Recently, I found a Chief that could be had for a good price - probably $6k. The aircraft is essentially complete.

But, everything needs to be replaced. Spars, cover, engine, plus the thousand other things that add up - windshield, prop, structural tubing near the tailwheel, wheels, brakes, etc.

Taking an objective look at the numbers, it would take $25k (including the cost of the project) to put this airplane in good condition, and that's with me providing free labor. I don't mind the free labor part so much, but I do mind putting $25k into a project that might only bring $20k if I had to sell it when it was finished.

I've looked at other projects too. A $14k Chief flyer that needed recovering, probably needed spars, and had a mid-time engine. Again, you're looking at a total of $20-$25k to put that airplane in good shape, and it would probably have a mid-time engine at that point. And it would sell for $20k after the rebuild.

I can tell similar tales regarding Luscombe projects I've considered.

Is this just the way things are, or am I missing something?

aeroncafan · Post by **aeroncafan** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 23:11

How do those of you who restore your own airplanes rationalize the numbers?

You don't! If you need one for less, you do like I did and buy one recently restored. Then you realize that this and that should of been done differently and the next time, you do the project plane...which will be done your way!

Post by **joea** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 23:37

We drink heavily? Just kidding...

Its a labor of love and if we started adding up the numbers we would go crazy so most of us do not. Its also a bit of therapy, working on, fussing with or restoring these old airplanes.

As well part of its passing the legacy of the plane and this era in the past along to the next generation...

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 01:21

You just missed a good Luscombe restoration project in Georgia--complete airplane, just needed TLC, engine overhaul. Price was right--it went to Florida to be an LSA airplane. The interested party bought it and his friend would have it he didn't. Nothing misrepresented. What I find nowadays is that most folks don't know what they are looking at and read too many slick cover magazines rather than consulting with folks that know old airplanes. Also known as tire kickers. Oh, I almost forgot, sometimes the wife is the barrier/excuse.

Doug

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 02:12

kyleb wrote:How do those of you who restore your own airplanes rationalize the numbers?

I fly ugly airplanes!

Start with a flying project; most important in my opinion. It's hard to budget "for an airplane someday," and a basketcase project will nickle & dime you. Many folks go the project route but fail to see the one major pitfall: regardless how cheap the project was; its still gonna cost you $30k before the airplane ever flies. But; if you find a rough looking airplane that is mechanically sound although cosmetically challenged, you can fly the airplane immediately and feed it money as available. This is a MAJOR physiologic (read... wife) boost and makes it much easier on the check book. Here's the example......

You find a project that's been through 2 previous owners. Most of the parts are there, but it was disassembled 8-10 years ago and will cost $8000. Maybe you've got the 8K in the bank ready to go, but it will still take another 15k to get it flying.

3k in covering supplies
8k in the motor (because it sat in a hangar on the dirt floor for 8-10 years)
2k for new spars
2k EASILY in hardware
$500 for the windshield that's cracked
$650 for the boot cowl that was run over by the tractor

You see where I'm going????

But, if you fork over a little extra money in the beginning, you can find a flying project. And since it's flying, the chances of a major expenditure in the near future are much less. And the best part, you have an airplane to fly!

That's how I bought my champ 10 years ago. $10k could just barely purchase a flying project, and nice airplanes were $19k-$21k. I found a Champ in Massachusetts by accident for $13k and it was perfect: mid time engine, structurally and mechanically sound, but the covering was in bad shape. I figured I could get 3 years out of it before it had to be recovered, and started saving up again. Well, 8 years went by and flew the crap out of that thing: the covering held out longer than we figured (paint was flaking off, but the fabric punched good) and I slowing started overhauling little bits as I went. Spent some money and rebuild the oleo's one winter, did the same to the wheels and brakes. Then the big-one finally hit, and I had to overhaul the engine. It took a year to do it, but I had enough money scraped together to build a hot-rod O200/C85 motor. Flew it for another year and a half before I pulled the airplane from service to replace the spars and recover the entire airplane.

Moral of this rambling is to spread the cost out while maximizing your flying time. Who cares if the airplane looks like a flying terd... it's YOUR's and it fly's! Flying projects keep you in the sky's.
nkh

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 08:15

Kyleb,
If you want to own an aircraft never try to rationalize the numbers. The numbers will tell you that it is cheaper to rent. The situations you pointed out, I believe you over valued the aircraft. A flying Chief that needed cover would not be worth 10K. An airplane in a box isn,t worth much. I picked up a Champ 2 years ago, in a box, for $1800. A few months later a buddy bought a Luscombe 8C, in a box, for $3000. And 2 weeks ago I picked up a Taylorcraft L2 for $1200. The aircraft are out there but you need to be ready to pull the trigger when the bargains appear because they don't last long.
People tend to buy a project for what it will be, not what it is,and generally pay too much. If you want to fly, buy the best flier you can afford. If you like to build, buy the best project you can afford.
In my case I like building as much as flying. I can't describe the satisfaction of seeing an aircraft you rebuilt, every nut and bolt, flying off on it's first test flight. Some people will never feel this, such a pity.
Paul

Post by **joea** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 08:40

Paul Agaliotis wrote: In my case I like building as much as flying. I can't describe the satisfaction of seeing an aircraft you rebuilt, every nut and bolt, flying off on it's first test flight. Some people will never feel this, such a pity.
Paul

And what Paul talks about is a really wonderful feeling. The airplane is kinda like your child and when it takes flight there is nothing like it. Its not your airplane, its more your offspring when you have put all this effort into building something like this.

Joe

PS Yes, its worth it, every penny and hour spent!

WWhunter · Post by **WWhunter** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:01

If you are wanting to fly DO NOT BUY A PROJECT. Did you get that? I have gone both routes and if you want a project buy something you can fly and then buy a project. Projects end up taking MUCH longer than anticipated and cost WAY more than you expect. There are those few people out there that can rebuild a plane in several months but for most of us family and other obligations seem to take precedence over the "other woman" (plane) and it gets put on the back burner too often.
Generally you can buy a flying plane for less than you will have into a restoration project.

Keith

DELCOM · Post by **DELCOM** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 14:38

I bought a project and have been 3 years so far with 1 to go. I DO NOT keep track of how much I spend. I do know that the stack of invoices is now getting pretty large. I support the Labor of Love senario. I know that I will have more into this when it is done than had I bought a flying airplane but the airplane will be a direct reflection of the way I want it to come out. During my pre buy inspection I thought I had a very good idea of what would be needed to restore the complete airplane, boy was I wrong. It has taken alot more than anticipated. I also was able to employ the help of seasoned rag and tube guys to help oversee the pre buy inspection and would highly reccomend that anyone thinking otherwise to do so.
I invest about 10/15 hours a week. Lots of late night and off hours whenever I can. It seems that if you figure that it will take 6 hours of labor to make a certain item new again you can just about triple, yes I said triple this time because restoration of these airplanes require disasembly and re assembly way more than you might think would be needed to fully restore any given part. I believe that I have taken it apart and put it together at least several time now.
I would not reccomend full restoration to any one not commited fully financially or labor hours wise to start this kind of project.
I would not have been happy flying a 62 year old airplane without checking everything first hand.

Del

mike newall · Post by **mike newall** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 14:58

We get asked similar questions over here in the Mother Country

My Bro and I always say the same thing.

Why do you want to build/restore an airplane ?

If they answer, because I want to fly, we always say - go out and buy one ready built, fly and enjoy.

If they answer, because I want to scrape my knuckles, cut my fingers, crick my back and lovingly build or restore a new or better still, classic piece of history, we say - come round, have a cup of tea, look at our toys

jkvincent · Post by **jkvincent** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 17:35

Rebuilding?, yes, you'll get tremendous satisfaction but reguardless of what you think, (are you listening?)
it'll take a lot longer and cost much more than you believe !
...just want you to know that goin' in.

as for support?, ...this is the best place to be.

Jim

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 18:27

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Kyleb,
If you want to own an aircraft never try to rationalize the numbers. The numbers will tell you that it is cheaper to rent. The situations you pointed out, I believe you over valued the aircraft. A flying Chief that needed cover would not be worth 10K. An airplane in a box isn,t worth much. I picked up a Champ 2 years ago, in a box, for $1800. A few months later a buddy bought a Luscombe 8C, in a box, for $3000. And 2 weeks ago I picked up a Taylorcraft L2 for $1200. The aircraft are out there but you need to be ready to pull the trigger when the bargains appear because they don't last long.
People tend to buy a project for what it will be, not what it is,and generally pay too much. If you want to fly, buy the best flier you can afford. If you like to build, buy the best project you can afford.
In my case I like building as much as flying. I can't describe the satisfaction of seeing an aircraft you rebuilt, every nut and bolt, flying off on it's first test flight. Some people will never feel this, such a pity.
Paul

Thanks for the comments everyone and please keep 'em coming.

Lots of comments in this thread are similar, but some of the points in this post hit closest to the mark for me. I already have a flying airplane - the RV I built, so getting into the air quickly isn't the driving force for me. And believe me, there is nothing more satisfying than flying an aircraft you built with your own two hands. Or talking with people who have nice comments to make about your airplane. In addition, I enjoy the building process, and with that in mind, my goal is to learn another form of aviation technology - wood, tube, and fabric, with the end result being a neat little classic taildragger.

As far as rationalizing the cost of an airplane, no, you can't do it, but with my RV, once the airplane flew, it was worth more than the sum of its parts. Looking at the numbers I worked up, a restored Chief might not be worth the sum of its parts. I have a mental block around that. I don't mind if my labor is free, but...

On the other hand, my eyes are wide open for a reasonably priced project, and I am prepared to jump on the right one. What I don't want to do is pay for anything twice. For instance, I don't want to buy an airplane with a decent cover job, knowing that it'll be one of the first things I tear off. You get into what I call the axe upgrade trap. You come across a used axe for $10 and after you've replaced the handle for $5 and the head for $10, you're in for $25. A new axe only costs $19.95.

Thanks again, and if you're aware of any good projects, drop me a note.

Kyle

shep · Post by **shep** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 21:29

General Aviation is becoming more expensive with passing day. I can think of two ways the average Joe can fly: Join a Club or Invest a lot of time and sweat into an older tube and fabric plane.

Another way to look at it is what does a newer LSA cost these days?. With the devaluation of the dollar prices are pushing $100,000. Putting $30K into an old Champ or Chief seems like a bargain.

Post by **joea** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 22:11

WWhunter wrote:If you are wanting to fly DO NOT BUY A PROJECT. Did you get that? I have gone both routes and if you want a project buy something you can fly and then buy a project. Projects end up taking MUCH longer than anticipated and cost WAY more than you expect. There are those few people out there that can rebuild a plane in several months but for most of us family and other obligations seem to take precedence over the "other woman" (plane) and it gets put on the back burner too often.
Generally you can buy a flying plane for less than you will have into a restoration project.

Keith

Agree with this and I have restored two Chiefs and helped partway on one Champ. For my current airplane I was too busy with life and work to do a project and instead bought a "ready to fly" airplane. Loved it from the get-go and have not looked back.

Would I still do a project? Of course yet but I do not have the time nor space to do one right now. It will happen later but not now.

SFC Hiatt · Post by **SFC Hiatt** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 17:10

I enjoy restoring but, right now I enjoy flying more. Hopefully one day I will have enough money and time to do both at the same time. Fortunately around my home airport there is always someone building on something. In fact one of the guys here is about to finish a 7FC. It's going to be an awesome Champ except the tailwheel is way to far forward.