What am I Missing?

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 20:26

Let me throw my two cents in here: The first plane I bought and rebuilt was a somewhat basket case 7AC. The best part of that plane was that it hadn't been apart for years and all the parts were there because it hadn't been moved from one owner to another and no parts had been sold off or lost. I rebuilt and covered everything except the wings which had been covered (although somewhat crudely) a few years before. It also had complete logs back to day one. I paid $8000 for that plane and I'm quite sure I had at least double that in it once it was finished. I'm still flying it.....did today, in fact

.

I had so much fun with the restoration process I bought a L16 for about the same price (too much but after all it is a L16

) Guess I'm not able to find good deals like Paul

. This one had been "bought, sold and moved" several times. Many small parts and some big ones that I knew about were missing. Also, it didn't have an engine. After I got into it, I found the longerons needed to be replaced and I decided to rebuld the wings completely with new ribs, spars, fuel tanks, etc. I probably tend to go overboard with the rebuilding process but I want a safe, reliable airplane when I'm done. Besides you can sell some of the used parts to help defray the cost of new. I'm sure I'm going to have at least $25,000 in this plane before I finish and that's being optimistic. But personally, I don't care. I've pretty much bought everything (other than wing components) a little at a time and when something came available. For example: I found a engine for $1000. Will need some work but the price is right. This will keep me busy for 3-5 years and I've still got the old Champ to fly when the mood hits me. Mostly I love to be in my shop with a snow storm outside, the coffee pot and the radio on.

I guess it depends (as others have said) on whether you like the rebuilding process with a lot of questions and hunting around for parts or getting a flying project back into the air fairly quickly. Be aware though, that once you pull the cover it seems a lot of 'worms' appear that you didn't expect.

Mike Berg (who is happy in his misery

)

shorty · Post by **shorty** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 22:11

What I've found is that I can fly now for ~$25k, or I can buy now for ~$4700, and fly later for ~$25k.

Difference is twofold.
#1 the $4700/fly later deal don't hit my pocket for $25k all at once.
and I get the airplane that I want. For about $25k

#2 I buy for $25k and fly rite now, but find little things that I want/need to change in order to make it right/correct/proper. which typically = more $$$. so I usually end up with about $45k invested in an airplane worth about $20k which I initially purchased for $25k

So it in fact DOES cost less to restore.

powers · Post by **powers** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 00:21

Good luck finding one for 4700$!

SFC Hiatt · Post by **SFC Hiatt** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 08:56

Sounds like you have just boiled it down to fly today or not. For me fly now was the only option. However, in Oklahoma there is enough non flying days to work off any mechanical issues or even restore the firewall forward.

Post by **joea** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 09:40

powers wrote:Good luck finding one for 4700$!

A good project Chief just sold for $5600 on Ebay last week. This was with a complete McDowell starter, which is worth around $1000, so someone got a good deal.

You can still find projects out there for a descent price. Just have to be lucky, keep your eyes open and have cash ready!

Joe

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 13:09

Of course part of the problem with buying a project or a plane halfway across the country is you don't really know what you're getting until you get there to look at it. I'm sure I never would have bought the L16 if it had been in....say...Florida and as it was, it cost me a couple hundred dollars to move the plane from south Wisconsin to my shop in northwest Wisconsin. With the price of fuel, meals and motels it would cost probably a thousand or more to move it from a distant spot like Florida, etc. Plus, you could drive all the way down and then find out the project is not as described

.

Mike Berg

WWhunter · Post by **WWhunter** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 14:01

Also, with the way the market is, there are some good deals out there. A friend of mine has a CCM (90hp) and a Scout. He has advertised the Champ with no buyers and he told me last night that it was going on ebay next week for NO-RESERVE!! I wished I had the money because it is a very nice non-electric Champ. He has 1400 floats, skis, and the 8.50 tires on it currently. He is selling the floats and skis seperately I think. I am trying to figure a way to buy it.

David Johnson · Post by **David Johnson** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 14:45

We have never taken apart an old Champ without finding lots of cobbled up stuff. Stuff that would turn you white! Sandblasted an old rear strut one time, it had been kinked like a drinking straw and straightened and filled with body filler. You could hold it up and it was straight as an arrow. Stuff like that keeps me up at nite. Lloyd found a fuselage, with the rear carry thru repaired per the AD. The piece of tubing was not long enough for the 1/4" bolts to go thru. When he pulled on it, the tubing just pulled out. Not welded or nothing. It was not doing anything! Rebuilding is a long, painful process. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU ARE DONE. David J.

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 20:24

joea wrote:
powers wrote:Good luck finding one for 4700$!
A good project Chief just sold for $5600 on Ebay last week. This was with a complete McDowell starter, which is worth around $1000, so someone got a good deal.

You can still find projects out there for a descent price. Just have to be lucky, keep your eyes open and have cash ready!

Joe

That project looked better on Ebay than in person. I visited it last week and thought that many items I hoped would be repairable were likely candidates for replacement.

Kyle

Post by **joea** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 20:31

Still, the important part, and its really important, is that the airplane was more or less together and no one had been messing with it.

My first Chief project was a pile of parts, and some were missing. Being able to take the plane apart, marking things and seeing how it goes together is a big plus. My second Chief project was like the current one on Ebay and it was a world of difference in how things went.

Joe

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 08:23

I would never buy a project without looking at it. And if you buy off ebay its because nobody local would buy it. The person who bought the listed Chief probably has no intention of rebuild. They wanted specific parts and after separating out what they require the rest will be back on ebay.
There are projects available but you need patience. I would pay more for a ratty flyer than a pristine project. All of the projects I've bought have been missing parts,even with the insistence that the project is complete. I don't believe they were trying to mislead, they just were unaware.
Using the Aeronca for a speculative investment opportunity is the wrong approach. If you are satisfied with your return on investment with the RV series, perhaps you should build another. If grass roots flying and learning the operation of vintage aircraft is exciting, welcome aboard.
Paul

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 13:33

Unless you can use it for business, I don't think you can actually "justify" owning a airplane. But most probably can't justify a cabin cruiser, a golf membership, a $20,00 Harley or (fill in the blank). I owned a Cherokee 140 for 25 years, bought it for $7500 and sold it for $20,000. I took it on a few trips to visit the kids when they were in college but mostly it was used for putting around from one airport to the next or fly-ins. I'm sure when I considered the amount of money I spent on it over the years with improvements, radios, maintenence, AD's, etc. the 'profit margin' was a lot smaller than it looks. Let's face it, it was an expensive toy but then I don't have a lot of other hobbies and as a mechanic I've always leaned toward repairing machinery so with an interest in aircraft and flying and retirement it was natural to move into rebuilding old aircraft. There's much to learn and I'm still learning.

I don't expect to gain any large monitary profit if and when I sell one of the birds but as my wife says when I complain about technical troubles and costs "If it keeps you busy........it's worth it"

.

Mike Berg

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 17:10

If you buy an airplane to rebuild only tell your wife that you will make money on it--anyone else will either ignore or snicker behind your back. You buy it for your own pleasure just like you do with other things, things that after a while become throw aways as far as money is concerned.

And if buying a project it is better to find one all together--might even be ferriable. A bucket of parts and pieces will usually remain that for a while. Especially if you have a family. And remember all these pieces take up room.

Personally it is better to bite the bullet and pay the price of something flying if flying soon is your objective. Otherwise enjoy your new found hobby. Not all bad though, it makes for good conversation.

Doug

Mark Lipp · Post by **Mark Lipp** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 20:29

I am in the final stages of having a 1946 11AC restored to better-than-new condition. This was, literally, the "project in a garage". The plane had been disassembled ten years before I bought it and had been stored (in pieces) in a garage. We are now in the sixth year of the project and I have invested in the 11AC over twice the amount of money that I could ever get if I sold it. Even if I subtracted the minimal amount that my friend is charging for his A&P time I am still WAY over the value of the plane.

I agree with several of the postings in that you should never take on a project if you think you will end of having a flyable plane for less than (or even equal to) what it would cost to buy one already in flying condition. However, as stated in several other postings, that is not why we restore airplanes. We do it because we want to keep these old planes flying.