How many hours to restore a Champ?
-
john-ranger
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 00:33
- Location: Henderson, NV
- Contact:
How many hours to restore a Champ?
At some point I plan on restoring my Champ (1946- 7AC). In terms of planning I've heard it takes upwards of 250-300 to recover an aircraft. To restore one, I've heard estimates of 1000 total hours (or more). Depending on the level of restoration is there a "average" that is talked about?
Take the figure you feel is correct, then at least double it, if not triple it, in both time and money.
The figure you have to recover the aircraft is after someone has spent a very long time getting it ready to cover.
There is a reason why many of us buy an airplane that is in good shape and ready to fly, and this is it. It takes a lot of time and fair amount of money to do this.
The figure you have to recover the aircraft is after someone has spent a very long time getting it ready to cover.
There is a reason why many of us buy an airplane that is in good shape and ready to fly, and this is it. It takes a lot of time and fair amount of money to do this.
This is a trick question isn't it?
Joe hit the nail on the head when he states that the work required to get it ready to cover is much more intense than the actual re cover and paint. I think that there would be many different levels of restoration that are possible depending on your personal preferences.
Please do not be discouraged by this daunting task as it is really very interesting and not that hard. Doing things that are new to you are always far more difficult than things that you are used to doing. Im three years into mine now with probably 1 to go but I could not be happier with the results.
I believe that the secret to sucess on an enderour like this is that if you feel that you are not willing to commit to putting lots of man hours into it consistently it will simply never get done. In other words 4hours every other Saturday would take forever to do a complete restoration in my opinion.
I can say that without the resorces that this site alone has provided to me during my restoration, I do not believe that I would have ended up with the quaility of restoration that I have done. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of info that is needed for the first time restorer and thanks to the many folks that freely share their experience here on this site.
Del
Joe hit the nail on the head when he states that the work required to get it ready to cover is much more intense than the actual re cover and paint. I think that there would be many different levels of restoration that are possible depending on your personal preferences.
Please do not be discouraged by this daunting task as it is really very interesting and not that hard. Doing things that are new to you are always far more difficult than things that you are used to doing. Im three years into mine now with probably 1 to go but I could not be happier with the results.
I believe that the secret to sucess on an enderour like this is that if you feel that you are not willing to commit to putting lots of man hours into it consistently it will simply never get done. In other words 4hours every other Saturday would take forever to do a complete restoration in my opinion.
I can say that without the resorces that this site alone has provided to me during my restoration, I do not believe that I would have ended up with the quaility of restoration that I have done. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of info that is needed for the first time restorer and thanks to the many folks that freely share their experience here on this site.
Del
N84029 7AC conv. #2716 Completed and flying
N83059 7BCM #1715 fully restored and sold
N83059 7BCM #1715 fully restored and sold
-
mike newall
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 06:32
- Location: UK
- Contact:
My Brother and his 3 buddies have just completed a restoration on a P#p*r PA12. Took it back to tube, recovered, new cowls, new bungies, new tailwheel, NO engine work.
They worked 2 days a week, 3 or 4 of them there, it took them a year and cost about $9 - 11,000 in total.
It will be better than new, ready for another 60 years service as an Aeronca's poorer cousin
Now I have to do a month's work on my Citabria that they borrowed to fix all the snags it came back with.............. Families - Ha !
They worked 2 days a week, 3 or 4 of them there, it took them a year and cost about $9 - 11,000 in total.
It will be better than new, ready for another 60 years service as an Aeronca's poorer cousin
Now I have to do a month's work on my Citabria that they borrowed to fix all the snags it came back with.............. Families - Ha !
Wow, there are a lot of varibles to a rebuild. Just to name a few,
Money
available hours
energy level
wife's anti energy level
place to work
winter
summer
building equipment
replacing/repairing building equipment
discovering that you have lost or are missing parts
finding hard to find parts
did I mention money?
I bet others can add to the list.
Having said all that, it is a lot of fun. I try to make myself do a little something everyday. I am only 9 months behind the revised schedule I set last September.
Dennis
Money
available hours
energy level
wife's anti energy level
place to work
winter
summer
building equipment
replacing/repairing building equipment
discovering that you have lost or are missing parts
finding hard to find parts
did I mention money?
I bet others can add to the list.
Having said all that, it is a lot of fun. I try to make myself do a little something everyday. I am only 9 months behind the revised schedule I set last September.
Dennis
The other variable in both time and money is what a late friend called the "Mize-well" or the "azlongaz" phenomena.
When you get the old fabric off, you see things that you should probably correct. "Mize-well" do it now, when the cover's off... Or, "azlongaz" we're this far, we should...
These take lots of time and cost lots of money. They may also cause AIDS - Aviation-Induced Divorce Syndrome. Really.
My Champ, from beginning to end, took about 4 years* and cost much more than an already-restored one would have. I do know the inside and outside of it very well, though.
Jon B.
*I bought it as a started project with over 18 months invested then spent another 27 months myself.
When you get the old fabric off, you see things that you should probably correct. "Mize-well" do it now, when the cover's off... Or, "azlongaz" we're this far, we should...
These take lots of time and cost lots of money. They may also cause AIDS - Aviation-Induced Divorce Syndrome. Really.
My Champ, from beginning to end, took about 4 years* and cost much more than an already-restored one would have. I do know the inside and outside of it very well, though.
Jon B.
*I bought it as a started project with over 18 months invested then spent another 27 months myself.
Jon B.
Mine took a little over a year...
but I worked at it every spare moment I had and I wasn't making a show plane. I was making a plane that I didn't mind if a little blood got on the floor boards.
I know a guy who rebuilt a Champ in just over two months but he worked on the plane for 12+ hours per day and he took a bunch of vacation time. He didn't have to do any engine work, he just striped the old fabric off, did minimal replacement of parts and recovered.
Mac
I know a guy who rebuilt a Champ in just over two months but he worked on the plane for 12+ hours per day and he took a bunch of vacation time. He didn't have to do any engine work, he just striped the old fabric off, did minimal replacement of parts and recovered.
Mac
I think one of the keys is being able to do 'something' on it almost every day. Otherwise, most projects (antique cars, airplanes, cycles, old tractors, etc.) die from lack of interest. Having the project readily available (read: at home) also keeps the interest up. I'm pretty sure if I had to drive 10 miles to the airport and work in a cold hangar I would have given up on my projects years ago. As it is, I can go out in the shop 50 feet from the house, turn the heat and radio on and put in 2-6 hours almost every day. $$$$ gets to be the hard part for me as I tend not to want to take money out of the family budget and instead rely on my part time bus driving job to pay for the project a little at a time.
I'm still in the first year of a three year plan and maybe about 1/3 done.
Mike Berg
I'm still in the first year of a three year plan and maybe about 1/3 done.
Mike Berg
"If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money"
Well, I might put in 2-6 hours every day but I don't get 2-6 hours of work done 
. I seem to spend a lot of time thinking and solving silly problems and not accomplishing much (or so it seems). Back when I was young/starting out and working as a diesel mechanic for a large truck dealership we worked 'flat rate time'. Now I just enjoy doing what I want and not worry about how long it takes to get it done. Don't believe I've hardly touched a tractor or a truck since I retired 10 years ago. I even started paying to have the oil changed on our car and truck.
But anyway, keep at it. If I remember correctly you have the fuselage pretty much finished so you can't have a lot to finish the job.
Mike
. I seem to spend a lot of time thinking and solving silly problems and not accomplishing much (or so it seems). Back when I was young/starting out and working as a diesel mechanic for a large truck dealership we worked 'flat rate time'. Now I just enjoy doing what I want and not worry about how long it takes to get it done. Don't believe I've hardly touched a tractor or a truck since I retired 10 years ago. I even started paying to have the oil changed on our car and truck. But anyway, keep at it. If I remember correctly you have the fuselage pretty much finished so you can't have a lot to finish the job.
Mike
"If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money"
-
Nathan K. Hammond
- Posts: 2371
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 00:22
- Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
- Contact:
1800-2000 hours if it's your first rodeo and you're shoothing for "Oshkosh Gold"
1500-1600 hours if it's your first rodeo with a full restoration and you're going back to a "normal" finished product.
1200-1400 hours if you're familiar with general mechanic practice and have done fabric work in the past.
800-1000 hours if you're experienced.
600-800 hours if you're an efficient task master that has rebuilt airplanes before.
nkh
1500-1600 hours if it's your first rodeo with a full restoration and you're going back to a "normal" finished product.
1200-1400 hours if you're familiar with general mechanic practice and have done fabric work in the past.
800-1000 hours if you're experienced.
600-800 hours if you're an efficient task master that has rebuilt airplanes before.
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
(at the most). -
Nathan K. Hammond
- Posts: 2371
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 00:22
- Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
- Contact:
In airplane restoration, as in many other areas, experience counts. I spent countless hours - really - standing in the garage, looking at the project, chin in hand, wondering "How in the hell does *that* work?".
Then there are the things that need disassembling due to the incorrect sequence of putting all the parts and pieces back together. If you're lucky, you won't have to order any new parts or materials after you screwed it up.
One thing that rarely - except at the very tail end - delays you is waiting for parts and materials. There's always something else to work on 'til the stuff from Wag, Aircraft Spruce or (in the past) Safe Air.
Doing a second restoration would likely take as much as 300 hours off the first go-round, just because you've "been there and done that" before.
It helps if you get to take the project apart. I started with a pile of parts - many broken, bent or worn out - and built a new Champ out of it. Most of the old parts were used simply a patterns for new ones. No original sheet-metal went back on, for example. Mine was bent, cracked, corroded or all of the above. Besides, in most cases, just stripping and cleaning the old junk takes as much time as making new parts.
I had something like 40 man-hours just in the (fiberglass) nose bowl. Lots of cracks to repair. That was after I paid an auto-body guy $200+ to fix it. The thing cracked just from handling it a few minutes.
My wife has forbidden another project, even though the Champ was assembled in our garage until the wings went on. Only three days of work were done in a hangar.
Then there are the things that need disassembling due to the incorrect sequence of putting all the parts and pieces back together. If you're lucky, you won't have to order any new parts or materials after you screwed it up.
One thing that rarely - except at the very tail end - delays you is waiting for parts and materials. There's always something else to work on 'til the stuff from Wag, Aircraft Spruce or (in the past) Safe Air.
Doing a second restoration would likely take as much as 300 hours off the first go-round, just because you've "been there and done that" before.
It helps if you get to take the project apart. I started with a pile of parts - many broken, bent or worn out - and built a new Champ out of it. Most of the old parts were used simply a patterns for new ones. No original sheet-metal went back on, for example. Mine was bent, cracked, corroded or all of the above. Besides, in most cases, just stripping and cleaning the old junk takes as much time as making new parts.
I had something like 40 man-hours just in the (fiberglass) nose bowl. Lots of cracks to repair. That was after I paid an auto-body guy $200+ to fix it. The thing cracked just from handling it a few minutes.
My wife has forbidden another project, even though the Champ was assembled in our garage until the wings went on. Only three days of work were done in a hangar.
Jon B.