Is it possible to change the heel brakes in a 7AC Champ to toe-brakes? If so, how much would it cost-- ballpark.
Thanks in advance
Doc Shuler
Brakes
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jackshulerdds
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bernie
toe brakes
the cost will bring tears to your eyes. it can be done. wag aero $2700 . probably reqiures a field approval( 337) unless someone actually has an stc. wag aero may have the paperwork. good luck . i don't like the heal brakes either but for $2700 ???
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jackshulerdds
- Posts: 14
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brakes, ground-loops, and pride-swallowing l0l
Thanks for the reply Bernie. Over two-grand? Forgeddabouddit.
I have to gulp a couple of times to put this on what I consider to be the best Aeronca-site on the net, but I want to let you know why I asked the question. I have been flying for 26 years now and have owned six airplanes, but had not flown a tailwheel aircraft since l984. Then last year I opted to sell my Varga and get a Champ. I have 62 hours on it now, BUT DURING THE LAST TWO WEEKS I HAVE GROUNDLOOPED IT THREE TIMES!! (this hurts). Luckily, no damage. First, one of the CHAINS which attatch the horn to the tailwheel for steering actually vibrated off just after touchdown, and once I had no rudder authority left, plus NO STEERING ABILITY, the lady headed for the grass and did a 360. The second was when I landed at a friends small grass strip. Now this strip is surrounded by tall New England pines, and right after touchdown I saw a nice "sink-hole" in the middle of the narrow runway. Going around was out of the question, so I tried and tried and tried to find the heel barkes-- quickly! So I found the left one, but my slippery shoes would not get ahold of the right one. You guessed it. STUPID, here, pressed on the ONE BRAKE HE DID FIND. Another 360. Day before yesterday, I just plain screwed up. Landing in a crosswind I think I put the downwind wing down to quickly and with too much stick, causing a resulting drag and swerve.
Try as I might, things got worse and worse until I groundlooped, again while trying to find the brakes!! So I went back to basics. I contacted WWW.Mountainflying.com where Sparky Imeson has written a terrific white-paper on tailwheel landings. He states that if the swerve get's too bad, use the brakes!! So I called him on the phone, and explained that this advice might not sit too well with those who fly Aeroncas, Taylorcrafts, and Luscombs. He Agreed. So my new rule: DANCE ON THOSE RUDDERS AND FORGET ABOUT THE BRAKES UNTIL THE BIRD HAS SLOWED DOWN. Half the time you cannot find them, especially when in a "pucker" situation. He agreed.
Since this is going out to some of the best Aeronca pilots in the world, do you have any comments??? I can take it!!!!
Best to you all
Doc
I have to gulp a couple of times to put this on what I consider to be the best Aeronca-site on the net, but I want to let you know why I asked the question. I have been flying for 26 years now and have owned six airplanes, but had not flown a tailwheel aircraft since l984. Then last year I opted to sell my Varga and get a Champ. I have 62 hours on it now, BUT DURING THE LAST TWO WEEKS I HAVE GROUNDLOOPED IT THREE TIMES!! (this hurts). Luckily, no damage. First, one of the CHAINS which attatch the horn to the tailwheel for steering actually vibrated off just after touchdown, and once I had no rudder authority left, plus NO STEERING ABILITY, the lady headed for the grass and did a 360. The second was when I landed at a friends small grass strip. Now this strip is surrounded by tall New England pines, and right after touchdown I saw a nice "sink-hole" in the middle of the narrow runway. Going around was out of the question, so I tried and tried and tried to find the heel barkes-- quickly! So I found the left one, but my slippery shoes would not get ahold of the right one. You guessed it. STUPID, here, pressed on the ONE BRAKE HE DID FIND. Another 360. Day before yesterday, I just plain screwed up. Landing in a crosswind I think I put the downwind wing down to quickly and with too much stick, causing a resulting drag and swerve.
Try as I might, things got worse and worse until I groundlooped, again while trying to find the brakes!! So I went back to basics. I contacted WWW.Mountainflying.com where Sparky Imeson has written a terrific white-paper on tailwheel landings. He states that if the swerve get's too bad, use the brakes!! So I called him on the phone, and explained that this advice might not sit too well with those who fly Aeroncas, Taylorcrafts, and Luscombs. He Agreed. So my new rule: DANCE ON THOSE RUDDERS AND FORGET ABOUT THE BRAKES UNTIL THE BIRD HAS SLOWED DOWN. Half the time you cannot find them, especially when in a "pucker" situation. He agreed.
Since this is going out to some of the best Aeronca pilots in the world, do you have any comments??? I can take it!!!!
Best to you all
Doc
The first tail wheel aircraft that I flew was at the club I'm at now. It was to get some time prior to flying my ultra-light. I was told to have my heals on the brakes while using the rudders at the same time crossing the threshold. With some play in the brake system this seems to work, but really felt like crap. The Champ that I have has hydraulics on it, and there is no play in the peddals. What I do is work the rudder until I'm sure the plane will stay under control and the heels will be slipped back over the brake peddals. At first this might make you zig zag a bit, but eventually you can make a smooth transaction to use both at the same time. The day will come when the brake may be what saves the landing. If memory serves me correctly the mechanical brakes on their own won't cut it, but rudder and brake at the same time will give tons of control. Intersting to hear other pilots techniques.
Ron
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
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bernie
brakes
toe brakes can save the day. you may be having other problems regarding the rudder/tailwheel rigging. i've seen the springs so loose/weak that full rudder won't move the tail wheel. your steerable tailwheel becomes useless just when you don't have enought airspeed for rudder effectivness. had this happen to me in a sea bee and the only thing that kept it on the runway was the new set of heavy duty cleavends and the toe brake configuration. we jacked up the tail and with full left/right rudder the tail wheel didn't move. rerigged and all worked ok. the type of tailwheel also has an effect. a small lang/maule or scott 3200 all handle different. hope this helps. bernie
Something like 1/2 of my flying is on skis, which of course have no brakes, so this may be biased but....
If you're landing on something fairly long, you don't need brakes. A bit of power - hell, all of it if need be - will make the rudder (on my big-tail Champ, at least) effective at any (including none) speed. I regularly land on crooked runways. An L-shaped takeoff/landing strip will often double the usable length of lots of stuff I operate off of. My partner lands on small (400' diameter, maybe) frozen lakes on skis by landing in a circle - just keep circling until you stop/start flying! If you can turn it and keep the inside wingtip off the ground, it's manageable. Point is, Champs have LOTS of directional control without brakes. Strong braking in a nosedragger (in my limited experience) will straighten out just about anything. In a taildragger, it's likely to make it worse, or compound the problem by putting you on your back.
I do land with a bit of brakes already in sometimes, and I often get on them pretty hard if it's rougher than expected, etc. However, I never use them for directional control; they just aren't needed, and can, as I mentioned earlier, compound (or create) other problems.
I have very limited toe brake experience, but I strongly prefer heel brakes. I wanna be able to MASH a rudder and not worry about what the brake might inadvertantly be doing.
I'd suggest addressing the problem with the tools available - ie, learn when to use the brakes and how to use them - instead of trying to fix something that I'd not consider broken (heel brakes). Get a _good_ tailwheel instructor to help you. My primary instructor made me take off almost every first flight of the day with me on the rudders and him on the stick and throttle. He'd hold it on all the way down the runway, lift the tail, set it down, feed in a little aileron, etc. It really taught me to react to unanticipated actions using the rudders, and I think it could benefit anyone _with a competent instructor in the back seat_.
You might want to practice crosswind landings as well, if I'm reading that correctly. That wing should be down on final, and stay there (by increasing aileron input) until you're tied down at the chocks.
If you're landing on something fairly long, you don't need brakes. A bit of power - hell, all of it if need be - will make the rudder (on my big-tail Champ, at least) effective at any (including none) speed. I regularly land on crooked runways. An L-shaped takeoff/landing strip will often double the usable length of lots of stuff I operate off of. My partner lands on small (400' diameter, maybe) frozen lakes on skis by landing in a circle - just keep circling until you stop/start flying! If you can turn it and keep the inside wingtip off the ground, it's manageable. Point is, Champs have LOTS of directional control without brakes. Strong braking in a nosedragger (in my limited experience) will straighten out just about anything. In a taildragger, it's likely to make it worse, or compound the problem by putting you on your back.
I do land with a bit of brakes already in sometimes, and I often get on them pretty hard if it's rougher than expected, etc. However, I never use them for directional control; they just aren't needed, and can, as I mentioned earlier, compound (or create) other problems.
I have very limited toe brake experience, but I strongly prefer heel brakes. I wanna be able to MASH a rudder and not worry about what the brake might inadvertantly be doing.
I'd suggest addressing the problem with the tools available - ie, learn when to use the brakes and how to use them - instead of trying to fix something that I'd not consider broken (heel brakes). Get a _good_ tailwheel instructor to help you. My primary instructor made me take off almost every first flight of the day with me on the rudders and him on the stick and throttle. He'd hold it on all the way down the runway, lift the tail, set it down, feed in a little aileron, etc. It really taught me to react to unanticipated actions using the rudders, and I think it could benefit anyone _with a competent instructor in the back seat_.
You might want to practice crosswind landings as well, if I'm reading that correctly. That wing should be down on final, and stay there (by increasing aileron input) until you're tied down at the chocks.
The other thing to look at is the cam in the tailwheel assembly. If it is worn excessively there will be a reduced tailwheel steering from the rudder. Checked mine yesterday and it's a fairly new Maule. With no slack on the springs, the rudder has about 1/2 inch free play left - right movement at the outer hoop. This play can be felt in the rudder peddals also. If it's a lot, the tailwheel cam mechanism is worn out. This will cause some serious lag in control responses when needed most. The tailwheel should also be tracking the center of the fuselage when the top of the rudder is lined up to the fin top. If not adjust the chains, springs, or whatever is there to work with. If this is not correct, disengaging the wheel for turning around, may only work for one direction and not the other.
Ron
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
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jackshulerdds
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 17:07
- Location: Londonderry, NH 03053
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brakes
Like I say, this HAS TO BE the greatest Aeronca site on the net! What makes it so are the PEOPLE that are on it!!
Starting tomorrow I will be gone for one week. But these replies are quite helpful.
The bird JUST came out of annual by a AP who has rebuilt six Aeronca Champs from scratch. He is one of these old-timers who checks what he has already checked. I think the problem here mostly concerns the NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL.(or the jerk behind the stick). In any case, consider this: Last annual for my Varga was $2500. It got 8.1 Gal/hr (at $3.37 per gal). This year my annual was $902 and my gal gets around 3.6 GPH. For a retired guy, that is great. PLUS flying the champ is more fun. I am planning to fly from NH to OSH next year--- hope to see some of you people there.
See ya in a week.
doc
Starting tomorrow I will be gone for one week. But these replies are quite helpful.
The bird JUST came out of annual by a AP who has rebuilt six Aeronca Champs from scratch. He is one of these old-timers who checks what he has already checked. I think the problem here mostly concerns the NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL.(or the jerk behind the stick). In any case, consider this: Last annual for my Varga was $2500. It got 8.1 Gal/hr (at $3.37 per gal). This year my annual was $902 and my gal gets around 3.6 GPH. For a retired guy, that is great. PLUS flying the champ is more fun. I am planning to fly from NH to OSH next year--- hope to see some of you people there.
See ya in a week.
doc
Jack,
Again, what type of tailwheel are you using? I had the same problems with an old hard wheel and went up to a Scott 3200 and the majority of the problems went away. Experience helps but if the plane or tailwheel is part of the problem then it helps to make the plane as forgiving as possible then work on your skills.
I would go through the entire system from cables to the tailwheel and make sure that its all up to snuff then get some good instruction if needed. Also have seen several cases where the tailwheel spring was tilted just a bit causing issues.
JoeA
Ps glad to have you posting here! We all benefit from others experiences!
Again, what type of tailwheel are you using? I had the same problems with an old hard wheel and went up to a Scott 3200 and the majority of the problems went away. Experience helps but if the plane or tailwheel is part of the problem then it helps to make the plane as forgiving as possible then work on your skills.
I would go through the entire system from cables to the tailwheel and make sure that its all up to snuff then get some good instruction if needed. Also have seen several cases where the tailwheel spring was tilted just a bit causing issues.
JoeA
Ps glad to have you posting here! We all benefit from others experiences!
heel brakes
I'm in the process of installing cleveland wheels with hydraulic brakes in my champ and I chose to stay with the heel brakes. Toe brakes also bring with them their share of problems. I'm a CFII and find that even licensed pilots sometimes land with the brakes partially applied which could have even worse results in a taildragger.
A couple of other notes.....I agree that the proper tailwheel makes a big difference. I replaced a hard rubber unit with a pneumatic maule and the aircraft tamed right down.
Also, I usually wear tennis shoes while flying as they give me a better feel for the rudders and their heel-less construction make it easy to get on the heel brakes. This is from a guy with size 14 feet who needs all the help he can get.
Good luck!
A couple of other notes.....I agree that the proper tailwheel makes a big difference. I replaced a hard rubber unit with a pneumatic maule and the aircraft tamed right down.
Also, I usually wear tennis shoes while flying as they give me a better feel for the rudders and their heel-less construction make it easy to get on the heel brakes. This is from a guy with size 14 feet who needs all the help he can get.
Good luck!
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jackshulerdds
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 17:07
- Location: Londonderry, NH 03053
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brakes
I gave my mechanic a phone-call this evening. I DID own a champ with the small tailwheel (the same one I have now) for three years back in the late-seventies, and never came close to ground-looping it. I am having the mechanic check the alighnment of the axles to make sure that they are tracking correctly, as well as the tail-wheel. I will let you know the result.
Doc
Doc
maule tailwheel
For my 7AC, I just rebuilt my old maule tailwheel with the Pneumatic tire...new olite bearing, new cam, new steering arm, pin lock, etc..I also have new springs...Yet it does not seem satisfactory..The tire itself seems to kind of rock sideways even thought the axle seems tight..This makes me wonder what happens on landing?My question is..How much air pressure do you put in the maule inflatable tire? Does the tire have to be hard like a rock?