I just had Gail's Champ annualed. The engine is equipped with ECI Cermanil Cylinders. When the IA ran a compression check, I experienced a first: All four cylinders were 80/80. Absolutely no leaks anywhere at all. The engine has about 40 hours on it since overhaul. I am very pleased, and I've never had compressions like that, even on new cylinders.
Mike
Cerma-nil Cylinders
Joe...
Joe,
Yeah, its the Don Sword engine. As I said before, I've never seen even one cylinder that was 80/80, much less four of them. If I ever buy new cylinders again, I will certainly buy the ECI Cermanil units... The proof is in the pudding.
Mike
Yeah, its the Don Sword engine. As I said before, I've never seen even one cylinder that was 80/80, much less four of them. If I ever buy new cylinders again, I will certainly buy the ECI Cermanil units... The proof is in the pudding.
Mike
Not to throw cold water on Mike's leakage check as I think it's great to have cylinders test out like that. However, I actually wonder about the usefulness of the leakdown test other than seeing where the 'leakage' goes. I've routinely seen cylinders with 60/80 with the air escaping into the crankcase that performed just fine as far as static runup, power and oil consumption. My contention is that the piston is only in that position (top of the compression stroke) for only a milli-second anyway. Plus, you're only putting 80 psi into the cylinder whereas the firing pressures are much higher under combustion and that's where the piston rings get their major sealing force. To me, the rotating (or old way) of checking compression is a better indication of cylinder health other than you don't see where the lost air is going.
By the way, there is no FAA rule as far as I know that a cylinder has to be condemned because it falls below the 20% leakage (64/80) figure. I believe the correct statement I read one time is "more than 20% is cause for further examination".
And I also content the engine should be at near operating temperure for a accurate test. Lot's of AP/IA's do them cold which is hardly an indication of engine condition when it's running.
Mike Berg
By the way, there is no FAA rule as far as I know that a cylinder has to be condemned because it falls below the 20% leakage (64/80) figure. I believe the correct statement I read one time is "more than 20% is cause for further examination".
And I also content the engine should be at near operating temperure for a accurate test. Lot's of AP/IA's do them cold which is hardly an indication of engine condition when it's running.
Mike Berg
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marklamon
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 02:28
- Location: Pensacola, FL 16FL J-22 Ranch
- Contact:
I attended a week long scool at TCM last year, here is some information regarding the ole' compression check.
The instructor gave a little speech on the 80/80 ultimate reading. "If the seal is that good the oil will not be able to lubricate and help cool the upper area of the combustion chamber." (food for thought, I'm still not sold on his outlook even though he has acces to TCM engineers)
Acouple of other cool things, the piston travels at 700MPH up and then changes direction and goes 700MPH down at normal engine speeds!
Also the propeller exibits the same force on the crankshaft as a 12'x12' brick wall.
Form the Top Care Program:
Perform differential compression check in accordance with TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 and record the master orifice tool reading.
1. For cylinders with differential pressures greater than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, no further action is required unless leakage is noted bythe valves.
2. For cylinders with differential pressures less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, the leakage source must be determined and corrected.
3. For cylinders where leakage by the valves is identified, cylinder removal and repair or replacement is required.
4. For cylinders where leakage by the rings is less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, further investigation in accordance with the latest versionof TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 should be followed prior to cylinder removal.
b. Record differential compression values for each cylinder and reference pressure value.
Wearing of cylinder walls, ring surfaces, and valve seats occur throughout the life of an engine. At regular maintenance or when condition inspections are indicated,
differential compression checks should be made and recorded for trend monitoring. The latest version of the TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 concerning cylinder compression
checks describes the necessary equipment, procedures, and recommended actions.It is important to note that differential compression checks are used to identify cylinder leakage rates and the source of the leakage. This check cannot be directly related
to engine horsepower. ENGINE TESTING HAS SHOWN THAT CERTIFICATION HORSEPOWER RATINGS WILL CONTINUE TO BE DELIVERED EVEN WHEN ALL CYLINDERS ARE
AT OR BELOW THE MINIMUM ALLOWABLE CALIBRATED COMPRESSION READING AS ESTABLISHED BY THE MASTER ORIFICE TOOL.Specifically, differential compression checks are designed to identify cylinder leaks that are occurring by the piston rings or in the valve/seat areas.
The use of a calibrated differential gage as described in the latest version of the TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 concerning differential compression checks is mandatory for accurate readings. If the leakage value is greater than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading established by the Master Orifice Tool, no further action is indicat-
ed unless leakage is by either valve. If the leakage value is less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, further investigation in accordance with the latest version of TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 should be followed prior to cylinder removal.
This service bulletin SuperSeeds (I saw it spelled that way in a log book one day
) TCM M84-15
http://www.sacskyranch.com/SB03-3.pdf
ECI's are #1 in my book. Enjoy! Mark
The instructor gave a little speech on the 80/80 ultimate reading. "If the seal is that good the oil will not be able to lubricate and help cool the upper area of the combustion chamber." (food for thought, I'm still not sold on his outlook even though he has acces to TCM engineers)
Acouple of other cool things, the piston travels at 700MPH up and then changes direction and goes 700MPH down at normal engine speeds!
Also the propeller exibits the same force on the crankshaft as a 12'x12' brick wall.
Form the Top Care Program:
Perform differential compression check in accordance with TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 and record the master orifice tool reading.
1. For cylinders with differential pressures greater than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, no further action is required unless leakage is noted bythe valves.
2. For cylinders with differential pressures less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, the leakage source must be determined and corrected.
3. For cylinders where leakage by the valves is identified, cylinder removal and repair or replacement is required.
4. For cylinders where leakage by the rings is less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, further investigation in accordance with the latest versionof TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 should be followed prior to cylinder removal.
b. Record differential compression values for each cylinder and reference pressure value.
Wearing of cylinder walls, ring surfaces, and valve seats occur throughout the life of an engine. At regular maintenance or when condition inspections are indicated,
differential compression checks should be made and recorded for trend monitoring. The latest version of the TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 concerning cylinder compression
checks describes the necessary equipment, procedures, and recommended actions.It is important to note that differential compression checks are used to identify cylinder leakage rates and the source of the leakage. This check cannot be directly related
to engine horsepower. ENGINE TESTING HAS SHOWN THAT CERTIFICATION HORSEPOWER RATINGS WILL CONTINUE TO BE DELIVERED EVEN WHEN ALL CYLINDERS ARE
AT OR BELOW THE MINIMUM ALLOWABLE CALIBRATED COMPRESSION READING AS ESTABLISHED BY THE MASTER ORIFICE TOOL.Specifically, differential compression checks are designed to identify cylinder leaks that are occurring by the piston rings or in the valve/seat areas.
The use of a calibrated differential gage as described in the latest version of the TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 concerning differential compression checks is mandatory for accurate readings. If the leakage value is greater than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading established by the Master Orifice Tool, no further action is indicat-
ed unless leakage is by either valve. If the leakage value is less than the minimum allowable calibrated compression reading, further investigation in accordance with the latest version of TCM Service Bulletin M84-15 should be followed prior to cylinder removal.
This service bulletin SuperSeeds (I saw it spelled that way in a log book one day
) TCM M84-15http://www.sacskyranch.com/SB03-3.pdf
ECI's are #1 in my book. Enjoy! Mark
Last edited by marklamon on Thu May 21, 2009 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul Agaliotis
- Posts: 2589
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
- Location: San Martin, California
- Contact:
I was in San Antonio in December and had a tour of their facility. It all looked in order and I have been sending them my engine parts. I watched them assemble a new cylinder.
If Continental stops building cylinders I wouldn't hesitate to use theirs.
Paul
If Continental stops building cylinders I wouldn't hesitate to use theirs.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
80/80??? I don't know I work on a lot of engines and I can't recall ever seeing ZERO leak down. I am a bit skeptical of this. Either the guage is inacurate or the rings are not the correct fit (or barrel not in spec). I kind of agree with TCM on this you should have some (maybe 2 psi drop) leak down via the rings only. No leak down on intake or exhaust. Something is sealed to tight. This is an aircooled aircraft engine not a submarine. Good luck with it and let us know after you put more time on it.
DC Krog
DC Krog
I too have the ceramic nickel cylinders from ECI. There's about 175 hours on the engine (over the past 3 years) and the compression checks have always been 80 on all cylinders.
There's a cylinder head temperature probe in the rear right cylinder and I typically see about 350 degrees. Doesn't seem to be any cooling problems due to inadequate lubrication.
There's a cylinder head temperature probe in the rear right cylinder and I typically see about 350 degrees. Doesn't seem to be any cooling problems due to inadequate lubrication.
Engine was broken-in with Phillips 20W50 Type M (30 hours). Now it gets Phillips 20W50 X/C and uses about 1/2 quart every 25 hours.gcgilpin wrote:I too have the ceramic nickel cylinders from ECI. There's about 175 hours on the engine (over the past 3 years) and the compression checks have always been 80 on all cylinders.
There's a cylinder head temperature probe in the rear right cylinder and I typically see about 350 degrees. Doesn't seem to be any cooling problems due to inadequate lubrication.