Converting 7CCM back to 7AC

[B PANCAKE]

A couple of months ago I received a call from a gentleman that wanted to convert his 7CCM with a gross weight of 1350 lbs and using the long stroke no bounce gear back to a 7AC with a gross weight of 1220 lbs and using the conventional gear. His question was if he could do this and if it could be operated in the light sport category? This aircraft started out as a 7AC and was converted to a 7CCM in accordance with Aeronca Service Letter 15 and Type Certificate A-759. I have checked with my local FAA/FSDO and they advised that it could be converted back in accordance with Type Certificate A-759 by removing the large fin and the C90 engine and installing a Continental A65 engine and it then could be operated in the light sport category and it must be maintained by an A&P mechanic.

I have missed placed the name and phone number of this gentleman and if he see this message give me another call I will be happy to discuss this conversion with him. If there are others that are interested in this conversion please give me a call and I will be glad to help you.

Bill Pancake
304-788-1974

[hammmike]

If the guy reads this I think I could take his 90 engine in trade for my 65 or just take his straight up. It is the least I could do. Mike

[WWhunter]

Mr. Pancake,
You are definitely more versed on this than I, but similar question have been asked before and from what I remember once a plane has been raised above the "magical" LSA number it can NEVER be converted back. I am not saying it can't be done....I am just suggesting that you get this in writing from the FSDO guy before you go ahead with your plan. If you can accomplish this I and others in the Aeronca world would really like to get the information from you since their are many guys that would like to do the same conversion.
As a side note...I really don't see why the engine would have an issue in this as engines up to an O-235 have been used in LSA eligible Champs. I have one!!! My Champ is a 7AC-CONV with the O-235 installed. It is heavily modified and is still LSA legal.
Good luck and please keep us posted,
Keith

Ps. Check the logs for the gross weight increas. Also get the FAA CD on this particular plane and see if the weight was ever raised in its paperwork. If it hasn't then I am sure guys will inform you on how to do this. This topic has had quite a few comments if you are willing to search..

[MikeB]

I think the key words in Bill's message is "back to". Common sense seems to tell me that if a plane was converted to a 7CCM it should be able to 'unconverted' back to a 7AC or even possibly a 7BCM with a legal weight of 1320 or less. One that comes to mind that couldn't be converted would be a 11CC Chief or 7EC as the original legal weight was higher than 1320 to begin with. It's probably a case of getting to the right FAA guy and Bill is one who has written a lot of 337's and most likely has the right contacts.

I would think this is one area that there might be some movement in due time and it would be nice to get a opinion from the fed's in writting as Keith suggested.

I still don't understand their reasoning regarding the 150 Cessnas as they are certainly easier to handle than a Champ, Chief, J-3, Taylorcraft (for example) and seem to fit all the criteria,other than GW, regarding light sport. Plus, they don't have to be hand propped. But then, what do I know.... ????

MikeB

[Aerco]

As I understand the relevant FARs once you certify an airplane to a higher than 1320 gross weight, it is forever stuck there, you cannot go back and thus make it eligible as an LSA again. Somewhere I read about a guy purchasing a C-model Ercoupe that was at one point converted to a D and placing it outside the LSA category - he was stuck with it and was told he could not convert it back to its original state.

I agree the rules as they stand are plain stupid - 1320 lbs is 1320 lbs. What logical reason could there be for not allowing an airplane to fly at a lower than certified-for weight?? Especially when it involves only a few lbs.

[MikeB]

You're correct! That's the ruling as I understand it. However, Bill seems to have found a fed with some common sense or maybe they're just starting to 'see the light'. Everything involved with government seems to take a long time. Kind of like two elephants mating: accomplished with a great amount of bellowing and takes a long time to get any results .

MikeB

[Paul Agaliotis]

I think the regulation is written with the LSA manufacturers in mind. If you build a LSA and convert it to Standard catagory you can't at your whim make it back into a LSA. Remember the LSA builder is the regulatory body for its product not the FAA. The statement about not returning to LSA pertains to this.
If Bill says he has a proceedure to convert this plane back, believe it! He has spent his life building this reputation with the FAA and with it he is able to sucessfully petition the FAA for favorable interpretations of the regulations. This is a good piece of information to have and we should assist him in any way we can. Not debate the LSA regulation.
Paul

[flyingfool]

I think there are two separate issues going on with this.

First I think that the airplane can be converted back legally. I believe the answer to this question is yes it can.

The second question is whether or not this "re"converted airplane can be legally flown by a light sport pilot or a pilot operating under the light sport pilot regs. I think this can be yes or no. it depends upon whether or not the complete STC to raise the gross weight was FULLY complied with. That means all the paper work went to the FAA and the W&B and any placards etc were put in the plane. If any one of these things was left out, than I think it CAN be eligible for LSA. It also means that it was illegally flown every time the plane was flown above the original gross weight limit of 1,220 lbs!

If on the other hand everything was done and proper, I think the answer to this second question as ludicrous as it is, is no it can not be legally flown by a light sport pilot. From what I understand, the LSA rules state the the aircraft had to "continuously" remain within LSA qualifications. That means that if it was ever out it can not ever be eligible again to be flown legaly by a light sport pilot.

Like I said, I think this is ludicrous. However I think that the FAA at the time wasn't thinking about this reconverting back business for STC no bounce gear etc. I think they were more worried about someone taking say a C-150 and putting in a smaller engine and lowering the gross weight and making it be LSA eligible. Dramatically under-powering an aircraft may be a safety concern.

i personally would like it if the FAA would change the language to allow this reconversion back issue. They may be able to put in at least the language that states that a converted airplane can be reconverted back to its original type cert and remain eligible.

The poor Cessna 120/140 guys however would like to just do an STC that would lower their gross weight in order to be LSA eligible. But FAA won't let them do that either. And I see absolutely no safety reason for that.

I am happy to be proven wrong on my analysis. As I think all of this is silly!

I just wish someone would do an STC to raise the gross weight (1,250 lbs +70=1,320!!!)for no bounce gear in my Chief so that I can legally carry 70 more pounds. While I understand that the no bounce gear can be added legally to a 7 AC, by I think Service letter, there is no method to increase the gross weight as no STC was done allowing the gross weight increase.

[joea]

Agree with Paul and if Bill says it can be done, I hope he is correct and can get things moving in that direction!

[B PANCAKE]

Correction to 21 October 2009 post. I just realized today when reviewing back post that I had made an error in converting back to light sport. You can convert the 7CCM back to a 7AC and operate it at 1220 lbs gross weight according to the type certificate but it CANNOT be operated as light sport. In the originial post of 21 October 2009 I left the word NOT out of the post. Sorry about the mistake. I hope this correction will be helpful.

[rkittine]

Hi Bill,

Wouldn't you also have to take the wing tank and the fuselage supports out to convert a 7CCM back to a 7AC? My 7AC-CONV is listed as a 7CCM and configured as one, but with conventional gear and is still 1,300 MGW on wheels.

Bill, you certainly know more about this than I do, but I was also under the understanding that if you upped the Max Gross Weight you could never reduce it and then qualify for light sport. I went through this regarding a 7DC, that had the No-Bounce Gear and the owner had ELECTED to increase to 1,350 MGW therefore not allowing operating as Light Sport.

With WRITTEN correspondence from the Albany FSDO, I was told that you could:
- Remove the No-Bounce Gear and reset the MGW at 1,300 Pounds (in fact you had too as it was the no-bounce gear that allowed the extra 50 pounds of weight and associated stress's) and file this with the FAA as that was what the Type Certificate allowed without it and then you COULD operate under light sport rules.

I was also told by the same inspector that , Technically, you could then ad the no-bounce gear and re-file for the addition of that option and then NOT ELECT to increase the MGW to 1350 which was optional and again operate under LSA rules. Seems like a bureaucraftic loop hole, but that would not surprise me.

Anyway, I have always found the Albany FSDO to be a little more flexible than most and getting it in writing from them was something that I was truly surprised about. The second part about re-adding the gear was not given to me in writing. I have had many good experiences with this office in getting field approvals too.

Best Regards and Happy New Year

I can not upload a file or PDF as it appears that the site has exceeded its limits for this, so here is what I could cut and paste from the note I got from the FSDO.

“After reviewing the Type Certificate Date Sheet for the 7DC, I have
determined that the original maximum gross weight was 1300 lbs. By
replacing the long oleos with the original part number landing gear and
making a simple maintenance record entry, the aircraft is returned to the
original gross weight, and subject to the original weight and balance
limitations. No FAA form 337 would be required since the modification is
listed in the TCDS.. The aircraft could then be flown under LSA rules.
Please don't hesitate to call or write with any other questions.

Regards,


James E. Welch
Airworthiness Unit Front Line Manager
Albany Flight Standards District Office
7 Airport Park Blvd.
Latham, NY 12110
518-785-5660 ext. 201"