Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point

[mtw]

Most articles I have read suggest that the wheel landing is preferred when dealing with a crosswind. However, on another thread on the site about max crosswinds, some prefer the 3-point. I got caught in a lot more crosswind than I wanted Saturday and used the wheel landing and made it in okay. I just wanted to see what the consensus was among the group.

Thanks,

Todd Wilemon
Aberdeen, MS

[joea]

Todd,

One thing to remember. YOU and only YOU are in charge of the airplane and if the tower tells you that "runway so and so" is active you do not have to land on that runway. Circle until they can work you in on a different runway if needed.

Several times in my flying career I have had a tower try to force me into landing with a strong crosswind or even a tailwind. I refuse it if its over what my comfort level is. "Sorry but Nxxxx is unable to comply due to safety concerns with this wind. This is a tailwheel aircraft and I need to land into the wind, and am requesting runway XX for landing."

Also "think out of the box" on things like this when flying a tailwheel aircraft. If its really windy its not a 2-3 knot wind, so you can do things during conditions like this that you normally would not think of doing. Like land on a taxiway that is heading INTO the wind. With a 10-20 knot wind, landing on a taxiway facing into the wind your ground roll will be very short. Have done this several times.

The tower (if there is one) will tell you "its at your own risk" but dammit the last time I looked they are in a nice cozy concrete control tower and not risking anything on any of our landings, so do what YOU feel you need to make a safe flight and landing. If you have to fill out some paperwork at the end, thats life. You are alive to do so and hopefully the airplane is ready to fly the next day.

Joe A

[MikeB]

Although I can do both with 'reasonable skill " I kind of prefer three pointing my Champ as some have said "tailwheel on the ground keeps you from going round and round". On hard surface I still recite to myself "nose straight, nose straight (you idiot) nose straight". The somewhat bouncy oleos on Champs kind of give you a 'tippy' feeling unless you concentrate on keeping the upwind wing down into the wind.
I still grit my teeth a bit on hard surface.............grass I don't care too much.

Relative to Joe's post: Oshkosh landed me in a quartering tailwind about 10Kts a couple of years ago. Raised the pucker factor.

Mike

[mtw]

Appreciate input. Saturday after I landed at home (5A4-asphalt), I checked the nearest weather station and they were reporting 11 w/ gusts at 17 mph. This was the most I had been in and I did not go looking for this, but was returning from a EAA chapter fly-in at EKY.

Thanks,

Todd

[joea]

Another thing to remember is that if you have a wide runway use it!

If the wind is coming 30-50 degrees off the side and the runway is 150 feet wide, come in at an angle facing into the wind as much as possible. Wingtip down into the wind and angle as possible to help.

Landing on one corner of a runway facing into the wind as much as possible may be your only choice in some runways.

[Dan1940Chief]

This is an interesting discussion for this new tailwheel pilot.

I have about 30 hours now, and still don't like landing on pavement (no other option right now, though). I haven't tackled any serious crosswind on pavement, yet, either.

I'm just looking forward to spring! (KWAY permits use of the grassy area south of the asphalt runway).

[mtw]

Dan,

I checked out your website. Good looking site!

Todd

[Dan1940Chief]

Dan,

I checked out your website. Good looking site!

Todd

Thanks!

It needs some updating....I'm waiting for a few more enhancements to the Chief.

[L3CFI]

My preferred technique varies w/ what I'm flying. The L-3 lands so slowly that I 3 pt just about every landing. Its also very light so I try to avoid the big winds. On the other hand, I'm a full supporter of wheel landings in cross winds in my Citabria. I've landed w/ 16G20 kts direct crosswinds and felt in complete control. When I 3 pt the Citabria in a cross wind, it feels like it is skipping sideways across the pavement regardless of what I do. When I wheel land it, I come in hot (about 85 mph vs. 65 mph) and just fly it on. When the tail is up, the wing has a very low angle of attack and produces very little lift. It feels much more solid that way to me.

Dan, if you want some good cross wind practice, fly on down to Wallace, NC in late March through mid-May. We usually have a 80-90 degree cross wind of 10-15 knots on a regular basis.

[Dan1940Chief]

Dan, if you want some good cross wind practice, fly on down to Wallace, NC in late March through mid-May. We usually have a 80-90 degree cross wind of 10-15 knots on a regular basis.

I've been to Ocean Isle beach a few times and had the joys of 25 direct crosswind in a fully loaded C205, but it's just no fun flying a Chief in those winds.

If I could move to NC I'd do it tomorrow.

[Carl Prather]

Todd,

I believe the safest landing is that which can be accomplished at the slowest speed consistent with the weather and runway conditions. Any direct crosswind of 10 knots or more commands respect. I believe that's a healthy amount of cross wind. You'll hear people saying that they land in a 25 or even 35 knot direct crosswind in little airplanes but I suggest you draw a wind triangle and see what crab angle one must keep to make a plane's course good over the runway then decide whether it makes sense. While one can land full stall in some crosswinds, there comes a time when the wind is so strong or gusty that a wheel landing is a better and safer. There are also times that it's just better to go somewhere else or landing as directly into wind as possible if there is no other choice.

That you chose to wheel land and you were most comfortable with the process given the existing conditions are a simply a sign of good judgement.

Carl

[Roger Anderson]

All opinions...but mine is 3 point, full stall it. Yes, you can fly the main wheels it onto the runway in a cross wind, but once they are on the runway you still have a tail up fully flying airplane. If that was the end of it, all would be good. But you now have to transistion the tail down to get the tailwheel onto the ground to have that steering command. It's the transistion that gets ugly. You slowly lose rudder effectiveness, but do so before you have tailwheel effectiveness and that's where a lot of the loss of control occurs. I prefer to just fully stall it in. It may not be as graceful, but once it arrives it is now only a taxiing aircraft, arrived and through flying. I agree with Carl. Over 10 knots of direct in my Chief starts to get uncomfortable and not much fun.

[mtw]

Thanks for the input.

Todd

[Dan1940Chief]

All opinions...but mine is 3 point, full stall it. Yes, you can fly the main wheels it onto the runway in a cross wind, but once they are on the runway you still have a tail up fully flying airplane. If that was the end of it, all would be good. But you now have to transistion the tail down to get the tailwheel onto the ground to have that steering command. It's the transistion that gets ugly. You slowly lose rudder effectiveness, but do so before you have tailwheel effectiveness and that's where a lot of the loss of control occurs. I prefer to just fully stall it in. It may not be as graceful, but once it arrives it is now only a taxiing aircraft, arrived and through flying. I agree with Carl. Over 10 knots of direct in my Chief starts to get uncomfortable and not much fun.

At the slow speeds of 3 point it's easy to get pushed around by gusts. Do you accept some drift when shoved just as you're about to touch down, since you're flying so slowly the swerve will be minimal?

[Roger Anderson]

Hi Dan. I don't guess there's really a good answer for that. I don't want to intentionally touch with any drift, although in grass would be much better than on hard surface. If the conditions are such that gusts exceed control effectiveness to prevent drift, then I'm with Joe, land angling across the runway if possible or runout onto a taxiway if available or go to another airport with a runway more into the wind. There comes a time when the wind exceeds the airplane's (and mine) abilities. A wheel landing under those conditions, my opinion, gives the same ugly problems, not touching down with drift, but wind gusts suddenly weather cocking the aircraft during the period of losing the rudder effectiveness. Then you have to use braking on one wheel to retain directional control. At that point most of us are not far from losing control and ground looping.