I am possibly going to be joining the ranks here as an owner of a 7AC.
I was wondering how difficult it is to hand prop a 7AC by yourself.
What are some of the methods you use?
Do you find the lack of an electric starter to be a hassle?
How about in the cold weather?
Any ideas on this would be appreciated and help ease any tension I might have in regards to buying an airplane without electrics.
Hand Prop Start by yourself
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Absolutely no problems here. Warm weather or cold with pre-heat.
My method is tie tail down, two primes, check mag off, throttle 1/8" open, pull over 2-3 times, cold weather two more primes, check mags off, throttle 1/8" open, pull over 2-3 more times. Next mags set to both, throttle check at 1/8" open, almost always start 1st prop.
I'd never wprry about a starterless plane, in fact I would remove gen & starter if I had one.
Granted I operate off private strip 95% of the time.
Hope it helps
My method is tie tail down, two primes, check mag off, throttle 1/8" open, pull over 2-3 times, cold weather two more primes, check mags off, throttle 1/8" open, pull over 2-3 more times. Next mags set to both, throttle check at 1/8" open, almost always start 1st prop.
I'd never wprry about a starterless plane, in fact I would remove gen & starter if I had one.
Granted I operate off private strip 95% of the time.
Hope it helps
46 Chief Serial #11AC-80
originally N86275 now C-GQHP
46 Taylorcarft in rebuild
originally N86275 now C-GQHP
46 Taylorcarft in rebuild
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Jerry Jackson
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 07:59
- Contact:
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Hand propping is not difficult and can be easily learned. It can be done safely by following a few rules that are simple but extremely important.
1. Get training from someone who knows how. I prefer the foot-swing method but other methods are used successfully.
2. Alway have a qualified person at the controls or have the tail securely tied. Always! Every time!
3. Develope a set routine for the process and follow it. If something interrupts the routine then abort that attempt and start over from scratch.
4. Be aware that hand propping some airplanes can be very dangerous due to a prop location that causes the body to be poorly postured to escape the prop. I will not prop a C150 because I have to bend over too much. I will not prop an motor so high that I have to stretch to reach it. But I feel very safe with our little tail-draggers.
5. If you keep the motor well-tuned and follow a recipe that the motor likes then hand propping is not a chore to be dreaded. There will be times things do not go well and then it can become a vexing. Hard starting can be caused by flooding, not enough prime, being hot, and sometimes just because. But those times are infrequent and no reason to avoid an otherwise nice airplane.
1. Get training from someone who knows how. I prefer the foot-swing method but other methods are used successfully.
2. Alway have a qualified person at the controls or have the tail securely tied. Always! Every time!
3. Develope a set routine for the process and follow it. If something interrupts the routine then abort that attempt and start over from scratch.
4. Be aware that hand propping some airplanes can be very dangerous due to a prop location that causes the body to be poorly postured to escape the prop. I will not prop a C150 because I have to bend over too much. I will not prop an motor so high that I have to stretch to reach it. But I feel very safe with our little tail-draggers.
5. If you keep the motor well-tuned and follow a recipe that the motor likes then hand propping is not a chore to be dreaded. There will be times things do not go well and then it can become a vexing. Hard starting can be caused by flooding, not enough prime, being hot, and sometimes just because. But those times are infrequent and no reason to avoid an otherwise nice airplane.
Jerry Jackson
San Antonio
7ECA 65TC
8T8
San Antonio
7ECA 65TC
8T8
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
I agree with the above. Hand propping can be done safely. Just develope a regular pattern for starting and follow it religiously. After owning my Champ for a dozen years I kind of know how it will start. As Jerry says there will be those time when it decides not to start for some unknown reason.....usually flooding on a warm engine.
After priming my cold engine and pulling the prop through about four blades (switch off, of course) I tend to stand between the prop and right side landing gear. Usually it will pop off on the first pull......dual impulse Slick mags made a big difference. Not as comfortable position as a J-3 with a 'swing down door' but you are out of the front of the plane.
My most difficult time was at Oshkosh a couple of years ago. Never gave it a thought until it was time to go and had to find someone (unknown to me) to sit in the plane and hold the brakes while I propped the plane off. At least he knew what heel brakes were and which way the throttle went (Citabria pilot). Tieing the tail down wasn't an option at that point, although I had it chocked. Lucky it started on the first pull, we switched places and he handed me the chocks. Maybe someone has a better solution but that's all I could think of at the time.
MikeB
After priming my cold engine and pulling the prop through about four blades (switch off, of course) I tend to stand between the prop and right side landing gear. Usually it will pop off on the first pull......dual impulse Slick mags made a big difference. Not as comfortable position as a J-3 with a 'swing down door' but you are out of the front of the plane.
My most difficult time was at Oshkosh a couple of years ago. Never gave it a thought until it was time to go and had to find someone (unknown to me) to sit in the plane and hold the brakes while I propped the plane off. At least he knew what heel brakes were and which way the throttle went (Citabria pilot). Tieing the tail down wasn't an option at that point, although I had it chocked. Lucky it started on the first pull, we switched places and he handed me the chocks. Maybe someone has a better solution but that's all I could think of at the time.
MikeB
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Dan1940Chief
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 21:17
- Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Safety is enhanced by a regular, predictable, well thought-out sequence of actions.
When hand propping solo, I follow the exact same routine:
A regular pattern helps me stay on task, and when I notice that things are out of order, I stop and think – always a good thing when dealing with a swinging meat cleaver.
When hand propping solo, I follow the exact same routine:
- Check fuel on, mags off, put gloves on, place chocks in front of both mains, secure tailwheel with stake and rope
Check mags off, prime 4 times
Walk to front, check airplane can’t move forward, cycle prop through 6 times
Walk around strut to cabin
Check fuel on mags on primer in throttle in ½”
Walk to front, check footing, check airplane can’t move forward
Throw prop
--- On start, walk around strut, sit inside while engine warms at 800-1000RPM, watch oil pressure and temp, once warm, reduce to idle (5-600 RPM)
Walk to back, loosen tail wheel restraint
Walk front, hold onto strut while pulling long rope on chocks to remove from mains
Climb aboard, RPM back to 900 or so…
A regular pattern helps me stay on task, and when I notice that things are out of order, I stop and think – always a good thing when dealing with a swinging meat cleaver.
-----------------------------------
Dan McCormack
http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/
1940 Aeronca Chief LA-65
NEW Home Airport: S37 (Smoketown, PA)
Dan McCormack
http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/
1940 Aeronca Chief LA-65
NEW Home Airport: S37 (Smoketown, PA)
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flyingfool
- Posts: 302
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 15:03
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin
- Contact:
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Knowing the engine start recipe is key. Each engine is an individual and needs a little different tailored technique to starting it.
The key to proping safely solo is to tie down the tail and or use chocks. NEVER simply trust the parking brake alone.
I personally set the park brake AND tie the tail.
My A-65 likes two full shots of prime. This usually results in some fuel dripping from the carb air box. I then With mags off. Pull the prop through 6 blades. (not 4 and not 8 - ask me how I know!) This stops the fuel from dripping. I then go around turn mags to both and pull my throttle all the way to idle. I and again check to see if the brakes are holding by shaking plane back & forth. And then pull the prop to start. it usually always starts on the first blade. This is for a cold start. After it is idling fine and oil pressure is up etc. I then go around to the tail and untie the rope from the tail. Then get in, buckle up, remove brake and taxi.
For a hot start A-65's can be cantankerous. I have not fully consistently found the sweet spot yet. But for me, my A-65 seems to like prime. So for a hot start this has been my procedure. Even hot after flying and refueling. I need to give it about 1/4 stroke shot of prime and pull 4 blades through before turning on the mags. Others will tell you to NEVER prime for a hot start. But mine won't seem to start without that little bit of prime. Like I said. All engines are unique and you have to find out exactly what it needs/wants.
it is actually a fun process learning what your engine wants. And you have a large incentive to learning it. because to keep propping is something that gets old after several attempts.
Propping to me adds a bit of romance to the whole experience. It is done so frequently that it is a novelty and some look at you weird because they do not know how an airplane can fly with no electrical system or starter. It is a sense of pride when you know your plane and do what it needs and you get the engine to start with the first pull. Leaves some guys scratching their heads who can't get a Cessna 172 started and wear down a brand new battery when you walk out. flip the prop and it fires right off
The key to proping safely solo is to tie down the tail and or use chocks. NEVER simply trust the parking brake alone.
I personally set the park brake AND tie the tail.
My A-65 likes two full shots of prime. This usually results in some fuel dripping from the carb air box. I then With mags off. Pull the prop through 6 blades. (not 4 and not 8 - ask me how I know!) This stops the fuel from dripping. I then go around turn mags to both and pull my throttle all the way to idle. I and again check to see if the brakes are holding by shaking plane back & forth. And then pull the prop to start. it usually always starts on the first blade. This is for a cold start. After it is idling fine and oil pressure is up etc. I then go around to the tail and untie the rope from the tail. Then get in, buckle up, remove brake and taxi.
For a hot start A-65's can be cantankerous. I have not fully consistently found the sweet spot yet. But for me, my A-65 seems to like prime. So for a hot start this has been my procedure. Even hot after flying and refueling. I need to give it about 1/4 stroke shot of prime and pull 4 blades through before turning on the mags. Others will tell you to NEVER prime for a hot start. But mine won't seem to start without that little bit of prime. Like I said. All engines are unique and you have to find out exactly what it needs/wants.
it is actually a fun process learning what your engine wants. And you have a large incentive to learning it. because to keep propping is something that gets old after several attempts.
Propping to me adds a bit of romance to the whole experience. It is done so frequently that it is a novelty and some look at you weird because they do not know how an airplane can fly with no electrical system or starter. It is a sense of pride when you know your plane and do what it needs and you get the engine to start with the first pull. Leaves some guys scratching their heads who can't get a Cessna 172 started and wear down a brand new battery when you walk out. flip the prop and it fires right off
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Gents,
One thing that is VERY important that I have not seen in ANY of the above posts is, the engine has to have at least one and better is two IMPULSE couplings on the magnetos if you are going to prop start it. Mike mentioned that it makes it easier, but frankly without an impulse coupling it can be close to impossible.
This makes a world of difference in hand propping! If you have only one impulse coupling on one mag, then start on that single mag and switch to both after its running.
As noted above, tie it down EVERY time. I used a 25 foot section of truck chain on my tailwheel and tied it to the hangar or a post with my old Chief.
Joe A
One thing that is VERY important that I have not seen in ANY of the above posts is, the engine has to have at least one and better is two IMPULSE couplings on the magnetos if you are going to prop start it. Mike mentioned that it makes it easier, but frankly without an impulse coupling it can be close to impossible.
This makes a world of difference in hand propping! If you have only one impulse coupling on one mag, then start on that single mag and switch to both after its running.
As noted above, tie it down EVERY time. I used a 25 foot section of truck chain on my tailwheel and tied it to the hangar or a post with my old Chief.
Joe A
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Dan1940Chief
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 21:17
- Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Joe,joea wrote:Gents,
One thing that is VERY important that I have not seen in ANY of the above posts is, the engine has to have at least one and better is two IMPULSE couplings on the magnetos if you are going to prop start it. Mike mentioned that it makes it easier, but frankly without an impulse coupling it can be close to impossible.
This makes a world of difference in hand propping! If you have only one impulse coupling on one mag, then start on that single mag and switch to both after its running.
As noted above, tie it down EVERY time. I used a 25 foot section of truck chain on my tailwheel and tied it to the hangar or a post with my old Chief.
Joe A
Are there Chiefs and Champs without an impulse mag??
Mine is left, but I turn to both everytime. One less thing to forget.
-----------------------------------
Dan McCormack
http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/
1940 Aeronca Chief LA-65
NEW Home Airport: S37 (Smoketown, PA)
Dan McCormack
http://flightmusings.blogspot.com/
1940 Aeronca Chief LA-65
NEW Home Airport: S37 (Smoketown, PA)
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Dan,
Some of the old Eisemans (spelling) even with a impulse seem to be harder starting. I had a set on my first A65 engine. However, it may be that the coils, etc. were getting week after 40 years or so, too. The problem with having both mags on "both" even with a single impulse is that once in a great while the 'impulse less' mag will decide to fire for some odd reason and then kick the prop back due to advanced timing. Don't ask me how I know
! It might happen only once in a blue moon but I have seen it happen.
It kind of reminds me of the old two cycle Detroit Diesels I used to work on in my (much) younger days. If you pulled the engine stop and let go of it just before the engine died, once in a 'blue moon' they'd restart and run in reverse. Moral: almost anything is possible, I guess...
MikeB
Some of the old Eisemans (spelling) even with a impulse seem to be harder starting. I had a set on my first A65 engine. However, it may be that the coils, etc. were getting week after 40 years or so, too. The problem with having both mags on "both" even with a single impulse is that once in a great while the 'impulse less' mag will decide to fire for some odd reason and then kick the prop back due to advanced timing. Don't ask me how I know
! It might happen only once in a blue moon but I have seen it happen. It kind of reminds me of the old two cycle Detroit Diesels I used to work on in my (much) younger days. If you pulled the engine stop and let go of it just before the engine died, once in a 'blue moon' they'd restart and run in reverse. Moral: almost anything is possible, I guess...
MikeB
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Paul Agaliotis
- Posts: 2589
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
- Location: San Martin, California
- Contact:
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
I have the old SF4-RN mags on the TAC. No impulse and it starts first time everytime. You have to pull it and not fool around. Those mags will fire at just a few hundred RPM, no impluse needed. Slicks won't fire under about 450 RPM so without the impluse you might not be able to swing it fast enough to get them to fire.
Paul
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Excellent answers.
I appreciate the replies.
Thanks.
I appreciate the replies.
Thanks.
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
whew, .....I push a button ! 
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
Gosh !!!!!!push a button....... I have to pull a "T" handle.
There are only a few on our airport that I would trust to hand prop a plane.
We have a small group of pilots that have worked out a procedure that works for us when we have to hand prop. It is pretty standard but the main rule is that the man in front of the prop is "in charge" and nothing is done untill he give the order.
Works great for us
Ron
There are only a few on our airport that I would trust to hand prop a plane.
We have a small group of pilots that have worked out a procedure that works for us when we have to hand prop. It is pretty standard but the main rule is that the man in front of the prop is "in charge" and nothing is done untill he give the order.
Works great for us
Ron
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
When we initially bought Gail's Champ, it was hand start only. Gail is only a 105 pound gal, and in my opinion, has no business hand starting any aircraft...
Soooo... I added a B&C starter and odyssey battery. We gained about 25 pounds with these mods. Then we switched the metal prop for a wood one, and now, the added weight is danged near gone, and we have a push button starter for the wifey..... Makes perfect sense to me.
Mike
Soooo... I added a B&C starter and odyssey battery. We gained about 25 pounds with these mods. Then we switched the metal prop for a wood one, and now, the added weight is danged near gone, and we have a push button starter for the wifey..... Makes perfect sense to me.
Mike
Re: Hand Prop Start by yourself
That's part of the reason I'm going with a battery and starter on the L16. If I'm away from my home airport it's too hard to find someone who you can trust to prop. I've also ran into the situation where I had a flooded engine away from home and it wasn't a lot of fun by myself. Of course I watched a fairly new fuel injected 182 cranking away this morning trying to get a hot start too.
Mike
Mike