How much to replace ceconite on wings

[7AC-JC]

I am looking at a 7AC Champ to purchase. The fuselage has been redone 3 years ago. However the wings and tail feathers have not been done in many many years. There are a few patches and some hangar rash to on the wings as well.

I am wondering what it might cost to have these parts recovered and painted to match the fuselage?

Also, I would probably look into replacing the paint on the tins.

To have someone do this for me, what is a rough idea on the cost? $5K? $10K?

Is it common to replace the wood spars with metal if it is opened up?

I am good with my hands and working with tools. How long would a project like this take it I did it myself? How much savings in cost?

Any help with these questions would be appreciated.

One final question... if the wings are structurely sound, is it possible to simply repaint the wings to match the newer fuselage color?

Here are a few photos to show what I am talking about.







Thanks.

[joea]

First off, please get an A&P or experienced "dope and fabric person" to look at the fabric and give you their opinion on the condition.

Lots to add into the mix here. First off, has the airplane been left out in the open or a "T" hangar, or is it inside a hangar? If its inside then the fabric can last for 20-30 years if not longer.

Next, what type of fabric is it? If it was done like these airplanes were shipped from the factory, then it has "Grade A Cotton" and that was done in the days where an airplane was recovered every 5 years or so, but also during a day when labor was .50c an hour. Cotton just does not last as long as the newer materials like Stitts, Ceconite and so on.

A tip. Get the airplane out in the sun. Remove an inspection cover on the bottom of the wing. Stand underneath it and look up at the upper fabric. If you can see ANY sunlight coming through (usually looks like pinholes) then that means that there was not enough silver and paint put on during the last recover and thats not a good sign. You need the silver dope to keep the sunlight out and away from the fabric (assuming its modern fabric) which is then covered by at least one coat of paint.

One option is also to fly the wings off of the plane this summer. Considering where you live you are probably not going to be flying much once hard winter hits. Then remove one wing and take it home or to a hangar to rebuild and recover. Considering that its your first one it might take a long time. Once finished re-install and then decide if you want to do the second wing or wait until the next winter. Many people have done this and while it may look funny with different colored wings, who cares, its what YOU need to do to make the airplane as you want it.

Joe
(PS a name would be nice on your posts)

[7AC-JC]

Thanks Joe.

I haven't purchased this Champ yet.

I want to. But I also want to get a ball park idea of what it will cost to recover those wings and tail feathers.

Also was curious what a paint job might cost.

These things will help me gauge it's value and price after I find out what it will need after an inspection/annual.

I'm not looking for exact costs. But a rough idea what it would cost to have it done.

-John

[joea]

John,

There is a thread on recovering.

If you look in the "fabric section" you will find that the second thread (and possibly others) covers this and may help.

http://www.joea.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=27

The problem with something like this is that the prices vary widely. Some people do all the work themselves or do the fabric and have someone else paint (like me, am worthless at painting!) and so on.

Joe

[Paul Agaliotis]

John,
Figure about 3K per wing with no work on the wings other than a little cleaning. About 1k for the tail stuff. If you wnat some kind of special paint job the sky's the limit.
Paul

[Roger Anderson]

Now first, if you really like working on projects like that, working on them being about as much fun and satisfying for you as flying the plane is, then you definately have some fun awaiting you...and like Joe said, nice long winters with which to do the work. My dad loved working on them probably more than flying (that was great for me). However, unless the sellers are really giving you a super rock bottom price.....and you haven't mentioned the condition of the engine, a person seldom ever recovers an investment in the money spent rebuilding...and you will have to have some A&P/IA time purchased. Again, what's it worth in rebuilding fun for you.

I just saw a Champ sold on Barnstormers today, sold in one day, that's right up the road from me. It was a super nice one and went for $25K. After all you need to do gets done (engine?) what will you have invested in it and do you think you want to recover that investment or just write it off as experience and fun. I'm fortunate, I am so unskilled I don't even look at something needing serious work so I don't have to make those type decisions. Anyhow, all part of the excitement of the purchase process....but several type of considerations are needed. Don't even let me tell you about a houseboat I bought once when I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I'm getting depressed just thinking about it.....and that was years ago. roger Oh...forgot to mention the spar question.

Actually, most rebuilders seem to stick with the wood spars. A complete set use to be around $2400. Although original spars are indeed old they aren't necessarily in need of being replaced. So that's not an always must do item.

[joea]

Actually, most rebuilders seem to stick with the wood spars. A complete set use to be around $2400. Although original spars are indeed old they aren't necessarily in need of being replaced. So that's not an always must do item.

Wooden spars get stronger with age. The aluminum spars actually get weaker with age. Why in the world someone would want to spend more money on metal spars that are heavier than the original ones is beyond me but...

Joe A

[flyingfool]

I'm no expert but I'll pass on my thoughts. But my recommendation is look at the safety of the wings as far as the condition of the fabric. While ugly, the air doesn't know the difference and you can still have fun and the plane will perform whether beautiful or ugly just about the same.

I would recommend against simply repainting the wings. All that does is add weight. And these birds have a small useful load already. You may want to look at the empty weight of the airplane to see for yourself. remember a lot of these airplanes have had "incidentals" added to the plane over time that don't exactly get put into the official weight & balance calcs. Airplanes get heavier with age. (just like most pilots!)

As far as fabric work. Do the work yourself after you have an IA/A&P on board who is willing to teach you a few things and be willing to stop over and inspect your work from time to time. Paying someone else do the work is amazingly expensive. Not because it is difficult. But because of the time it takes to do. If you are like me, I have a LOT more time than money. I personally really like working on fabric, the little that I've done. As Joe recommends do one wing at a time. Or at least start with one wing. If things go well and faster than you thought ,then you can dive into the 2nd wing even that first year. Buy all the quantity of at least surface top coat paint at one time in one batch to do BOTH wings as pigments do vary slightly from batch to batch. However being separated by the fuselage would minimize noticing any variation. The undercoatings it is not so important as those are never seen.

Also understand that you will NOT likely get a perfect match even after you do the wings. You can not replicate mother natures wear & tear and fading exactly. Keep this in mind because when you are done you may still not be satisfied with the final results. Can you live with this difference or will this bug you to no end?

I do not know what they are asking for this Champ. As mentioned above, don't concentrate 100% or your concern over the wing fabric and aesthetics. The engine condition is at least if not more important as that is where large & expensive fixes lie.

One last caution. Buying an airplane is an emotional thing. Do NOT get totally caught up in the emotion. Get a complete 100% thorough pre-buy inspection. In fact pay for an annual to get done if need be. It is money well spent. Also keep in mind that there are other Champs or Chiefs that will be for sale in the market may meet your needs better that won't need re-covering for several years and better meet your aesthetic desire. I've seen a lot of Champs/Chiefs that maybe a new interior would be in order that are at attractive prices over the last few months. Airplanes are expensive and paying/investing a bit more now for travel (to wherever the plane is in the country) and inspections and even paying someone to fly the airplane from its current location to your home will be well worth it in the long run. Please do not be penny wise and pound foolish.

That being said. There is nothing like the pride you feel when you work on, and improve your own airplane! But putting in a new interior and adding a few odds and ends is cheap compared to recovering or rebuilding an engine!

I wish you well.

[Champ Dreamer]

John,
I recovered the wings on my Champ last summer. My first fabric job. I used Stitts Polyfiber, their manual is excellent, takes you step by step. My spars were good, I cleaned and varnished them. Replaced a few ribs. I spent a little over $2K (total) for materials, and it took me about three months, working part time on the project (I would guess a hundred hours or so). It was a lot easier than I expected. Also, had a great A&P IA looking over my shoulder. I wasn't going to do the fuselage yet, but I had so much fun with the wings, that I am in the middle of the fuse now, hope to be finished with that in a month or so. Buy the manual from Polyfiber or Ceconite (or both) and read it over first, I think you'll want to give it a try.

Brian Walker

[MikeB]

John,
So there you have a pretty good idea on the cost of covering the wings, somewhere between $6000 (Paul's) and $2000 (Brian's). It largely depends on what you find once you open them up. Some of the ribs, may be cracked and at the unrepairable point. Others can be repaired. Ribs run about $90 each. Spars, if you buy them around $670 each (plus expensive shipping).
I spent pretty close to Pauls' price of $3000 each on my wings but I replaced everything: spars, all ribs, leading edge, etc. Yours might be better. Get a good prebuy from someone who knows tube and fabric, preferably Aeroncas (but not necessarily). Also, can interpet the log books, at times better known as comic books due to the stories and lies inside. You'll most likely find some previous damage. Not unusual on these old timers who have been trainers in an earlier life. It's OK if the damage is correctly repaired and documented, etc.

One other thing (in my opinion) you need a good place to work, preferably at home, where you can go out and work on the project on a regular basis. There are a lot of unfinished projects sitting in old hangars because the owner lost interest or it was cold or too far to drive or he was tired after supper, etc. You get the picture. My shop is about 75 feet from the house. That's why I'm in looking at the computer while my paint is 'tacking up' . I try to work on it every day...............

MikeB

[joea]

Tony Markl
markl@intercom.net
tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
(fabric work taught/done at your location)

Have known Tony for years, and he can come to your location and help you do fabric work there. He also does help with restoration if needed.

Email him and see what he would charge. He is not far, located in Delaware.

Joe A

[7AC-JC]

Lots of good info from everyone.

Flyin Fool, special thanks for writing all that. Excellent info and it gave me a lot to think about.

After I get the logs and inspection, I should have a good idea if this will be worth it.

I think it might. But won't know until I know how the spars are.

[Carl Prather]

I fully agree with Joe. I see no legitimate reason to give up on wood spars. I would consider just painting the wings and enjoy the plane. Or simply fly the plane and find a set of wings to recover on the side. Once it's torn down, you won't be flying anytime soon.

Welcome aboard!

Carl Prather

[joea]

Carl,

Great idea. Find a used set of wings, recover them during the winter and switch them out on the plane when you can.

Then overhaul the old wings and sell them or rent them out to others.

Joe