Landing issues, any advice?

[NC86036]

WOW! Thanks for the responses! My friend and I are going to check and top off the Oleo oil in the struts this weekend and inspect all hardware for wear. I purchased the John Deere tractor hydraulic oil that was recomended on the boards, and have the turkey baster to fill with. After we take care of all that, and do an oil change on the engine, we will try out the corrected tire pressure and oleo service and see how it goes. Hopefully there will be an improvement. I will repost with results. Thanks for all your help!!!

[joea]

Another vote for tire pressure 12-14 psi. NO MORE!!!

Been flying these old birds for going on 30 years now and flying off of hard surface with tire pressure higher than this is just asking for problems. Lower your pressure in the tires and give it a try.

[jimknuck]

And I agree on the 12-14 pound air pressure.

[deCreeft]

It would be worth checking the alignment, I would think...
Make "grease plates"...get some thin steel plates(about a square foot of 1/8th steel) two each side with grease between them and park it on them and let the wheels find where they like to be...then compare angles, etc.
Three point maybe, and then tail up on a support maybe...just see how things look.

The fact that you're doing fine on grass means to me your wheels are 'off' and the grass is like X-wind gear, or you are landing aimed crooked.

And then if all else fails...Slow it Down !...hold it off...relax...Keep it Straight, and don't line up the cowling with the edge of the runway (in other words keep it straight!)

Keep it fun...

Bill

[NC86036]

Well, I finally got around to snapping a chalk line and checking the alignment on the plane. I cant believe how much the toe was in. Using a 5' straight edge on the wheels, the left wheel had over 6" difference between front and back of the stick. The toe was so bad you could see it without a straight edge on it. I ended up swapping the axles as a few others have tried. Now I am within 1/4" on toe in and tracking perfect. I'm very happy with the result. I serviced the Oleo's, replaced the tires, did an oil change and installed a vertical card compass. The new spinner back plate was installed as well. Waiting on spinner to be finished painted. I cant wait to see what the difference the landings will be with the toe set correctly, air pressure set correctly, and Oleo's serviced. It should be like an entirely different plane.

[Griphos]

Could you spell out the procedure a bit more for checking the toe in (chalk line and straight edge). Or point me to something that explains it. I'd like to check my plane.

Glad to hear you've got it straightened out. Looking forward to hearing how it handles now.

[NC86036]

First I raised the tail up on a saw horse to apx level flight. I snapped a chalk line using a plumb bob at the tail spring main bolt, and the prop hub center. I then took (2) 5' pieces of 1 3/4" x 1 3/4" square extruded aluminum bar, marked a center line on the bar, lined up the center line with the center of the tire hub ( wheel pants extension removed).

I then took down the air pressure in the tire to a point where the bar could be clamped against the rim without being entirely flat. The rim gives you a true flat reading for the wheel position. I put wood blocks behind the wheel to clamp against so no damage to the wheel or brake happened. I used some welding locking pliers (kind of like Vise grips with huge c clamp like jaws). I then measured the front and rear of the aluminum bar from the ground to make sure it was level. With help of a friend, I held a framing square vertically on the chalk line to give an exact center at the hight of the bar.

My friend stretched a tape measure from the inside of the very end of the bar to the framing square and took a reading. Then repeated the process at the rear of the bar. This gives a VERY exaggerated reading of the difference between the front and rear of the tire compared to the centerline of the fuselage (which is your desired track line as well), also known as "toe in" or "toe out". The longer bar you use the more accurate you can dial the wheels in. It turns out that the left wheel had a total of over 6" of "toe in" between the front and rear of the 5' bar. Of course this was exaggerated, but was well over an inch difference from front and rear of the tire itself.

It was no wonder the plane went crazy on touchdown. It was steering me in the direction that tire was pointing. Anyways, taking a reading using this method gives you an accurate "toe in" measurement and wheel track measurement. Your plane could be tracking down the runway at a slight angle in relation to the centerline and you dont even know it without doing this. My plane was run through a fence at the end of a runway back in the early 60's and had major re structuring and landing gear replaced. When the axles were adjusted to the fuselage repair they were different from right to left, even though they are identical parts.

When my plane was restored back in 1988, the axles were apparently mixed up and put on opposite sides. I think this because when I swapped the axles from right to left, everything fell into place with no heating or bending of the tubes. I am now within 1/4" toe in and have a good track. Its AMAZING the difference just an axle swap did! I was afraid I had to heat and bend, which I really did not want to do.

I haven't had time to go back up yet due to work schedule and weather, but hopefully on monday I will. I expect good things. This is a GREAT web site with alot of VERY experienced people and I thank everyone for their posts and advice. Hope to meet some of them at fly-in events.

[EDIT added some paragraphs to make the post easier to read, Admin]

[Roger Anderson]

Robert. Thanks for that good info. It appears you are down near Bessemer. I guess that's a little too far to run up to Moontown (Huntsville area) for their monthly breakfast. However, a great fly in I attended for the first time this past year is Thomasville, GA, not too far for you. It's in Oct.

[NC86036]

Roger,

I plan on hitting Moontown for as many of their breakfasts and fly in events as possible. I don't see it as being too far. I want to start going places in my plane. I won't be attending Sun N Fun this year (hopefully next year), but I do plan on SERFI. If you can, send me some more info on that fly-in in Georgia. EAA Sport Aviation, and EAA Vintage Airplane magazines post several fly-in's in their monthly issues, I will have to browse through and check them out as well. I look forward to getting alot more active with my flying. Especially if this alignment, tire pressure correction, and Oleo service, cures my landing problem. It has sure been a crash course (literally) in learning how to fly tailwheels with a plane that is not right.

[joea]

Robert,

Did you ever get the airplane up in the air? Hoping to hear that between putting the landing gear on the correct side and having the right tire pressure that you finally have a nice landing airplane!

BTW, if you get to MoonTown hope my old Chief is there and flying. N3230E and the new owners name is Lance.

Joe A

[Roger Anderson]

Here you go Robert...about the Thomasville fly in that is. The first is a link to their web site. The second a bunch of pics I took ther this past year. They have had a run of bad luck for the past few years on weather. However, this past year was beautiful. Not a lot of planned action there, just airplanes to look at, and some super nice Thomasville people running the event. Roger


http://www.thomasvilleflyin.com/

http://s241.photobucket.com/albums/ff28 ... ?start=all

[NC86036]

This weather is really getting me down. I have been grounded for the past several days due to weather. I may possibly get to go up Thursday and/or Friday if weather pans out. I am dying to see the results of my adjustments. The proof will be landing back at EET on a paved strip. I am really looking forward to it. At least I know I have given plenty of time to let the silicone on my brake clips to cure before use.

[CptKelly]

Robert,
Considering how far "off" your landing gear alignment was off, I don't see how your chief was controllable at all. I think you are lucky to have a whole airplane. The result of lining up your gear will be dramatic. I believe you will find that your "tiger" has become a pussy cat. On the first flight, just take it easy, and explore its handling.

About the weather: I have a friend who just bought a L-19 which was located in northern West Virginia. It was two months before a small window presented itself for us to go up and fly it back. Just be patient, and you will get there.

I am aware of the weather challenges in Alabama. I went through flight training at Ft. Rucker in the winter. Can you say icing? Once I saw a T42 with inches of ice covering the whole aircraft, the props looked like baseball bats. How that plane flew is still a mystery, but they got it down in one piece.

Spring is nearly upon us, and good flying weather is just around the corner. I'm looking forward to your pirep on the "new" ground handling of your plane.

Mike

[NC86036]

Mike,

This plane was VERY interesting to say the least on paved runways. If it weren't for brakes, I probably would not have a plane right now. It was that bad. It has been a wild adventure learning how to fly tailwheels in a plane that out of whack. I am really expecting good things when I can get back up.

[NC86036]

OKAY!! Here are the results of the repair work. After servicing the Oleo's, swapping the axles, replacing the tires and setting them at 13psi, the plane is night and day different. It lands almost as easy as a (dare I say it) tricycle gear. It goes in the direction it is pointed in, with NO squirreliness. I cant believe the difference. I used to break a sweat comming in over the numbers, anticipating the fight upon touchdown. Now, I look forward to the soft chirp of the tires and the smooth rollout. I barely have to use the pedals. It is so amazing the difference. Its like a completely different airplane. I thank everyone for their input and advice, as well as past posts that I was able to reference. Hope to meet some of you guys at future fly-in's.