My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Aeronca airplanes wanted or for sale
Windknot
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Windknot »

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Yes you can. The 1320lb limit is for the LSA Certificated aircraft, once exceeded cannot be returned.

The Standard Catagory aircraft can be modified above, and returned to the lighter gross weights. Make sure your Operating Limitations and Weight & Balance reflect the proper weights if you plan to exercise your LSA pilot rating in this aircraft.
Paul
Paul - the EAA writes: "Holders of a sport pilot certificate may fly an aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate if it meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft." (citation: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_r ... opsis.html )

This would seem to negate what you said - is there, do you have supporting documentation and/or links to disprove them on this? (not trying to fight or troll.....there's a SHITELOAD of 7AC CONV to DC, CCM's out there with No bounce gear and 1350 gross that would make fine airplanes for my fat butt IF I could shift the gross back.

I understand that I could buy one of these and have it reweighed, rebalanced and gross lowered to 1320# or below - you've always been able to do that, and I could fly it to my hearts content with a PPL, its just the flying it for light sport that concerns me.
Paul Agaliotis
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

The FAR's will have all of the information for modification of a Standard Category aircraft. You can use this information to meet LSA requirements.
The LSA aircraft are built to ASTM specifications and are not regulated by the FAA or the EAA.
Stay away from the EAA information, they tend to slant it in a direction that fits their purpose.
Paul
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mslezak
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by mslezak »

Has anyone out there tried this? There are so many planes that barely miss the 1320 and as a result, they go for much less than LSA-qualified aircraft. To just remove some added item to drop the gross per the TCDS, we could potentially get a deal.
Carl Prather
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Carl Prather »

Try this link to the FAA's letter: http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/new ... ewsId=6262

In part, it reads "Certain type-certificated aircraft that meet the above criteria may also be operated with a light-sport pilot certificate." It doesn't say how type-certificated aircraft can be made eligible. Having said that, I understand that STCs would not be granted to an aircraft originally type-certificated with a gross weight greater 1320 pounds. If a plane had no-bounce gear installed and the gross weight raised to above 1320 pounds, I see no reason why the original gear couldn't be re-installed and cause the gross weight reduced to its original, LSA-eligible weight using a Form 337. There is no STC work being here, simply a reversion back to the aircraft's original type design. This particular work done to such a plane has no bearing on LSA rules.

Here's another link, this time from the EAA: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/sta ... craft.html

Which reads, in part:

"Aircraft which do not meet the definition of Light-Sport Aircraft: The following aircraft DO NOT qualify for operation by sport pilots because their gross weight, as originally certificated, is above the 1320 lb limit (1430 lb for seaplanes)"

The key words here are "originally certificated". There seems to be a good, reasoned and legal means of bringing back type-certificated aircraft back into the LSA-elgible fold.

When the LSA rules were first being written in response to the complaints about the limits of the sport pilot, I may have written on this list that we needed to be patient and another push to relax unneeded rules would occur again. Well, I hope everyone wrote in support of the latest proposal to expand the use of aircraft up to 180 horsepower but restricted to flying only one passenger in a maximum four seat plane having fixed gear. The medical certification exemption presented in a joint effort by the EAA and the AOPA is this the next step and thanks to our safety record, the FAA should have few complaints or worries.

If not, you have until September 10, 2012 to do this. Here's the link:

http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/2012-07-10_exemption.asp

We can all complain about government or we can act within our rights to redress our grievances by supporting the next step in the expansion of our freedom fly. It may be perfect but it's a step in the right direction. It worked once and it can work again if everyone simply spend 10 or 15 minutes on writing a note in support of the medical exemption.

My two cents in any event,

Carl
MikeB
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by MikeB »

I'm not sure the no bounce gear has that much to do with it. For example: my L16 had NB installed but still licensed a 1220#. My Wagner STC brings it up to 1300#. Not in the records but I'm sure the CAP installed the NB years ago. My friends L16A had been heavily modified by the CAP back in the 60's (in records) and the NB installed. I believe the wording is "brings the GW up to 1300# but eligible for 1350#" or something to that effect. Somewhere along the line it was registered at 1350# but I'd think a simple new weight and balance and log book entry is all that would be required to re-register at 1300# (and leave the NB on).

Mike Berg
Windknot
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Windknot »

MikeB wrote:I'm not sure the no bounce gear has that much to do with it.



Absolutely right - methinks (and I might be talking out my rear here or stating the over-obvious here) that no bounce is most often brought up as that addition has been the death knell for so many Champ conversions - somewhere (most often seen by me in CAP conversions) someone along the line added them and stretched the Gross up to the max that the NB gear allowed at 1350# and damming the plane for future generations......or so many thought


MikeB wrote: Somewhere along the line it was registered at 1350# but I'd think a simple new weight and balance and log book entry is all that would be required to re-register at 1300# (and leave the NB on).

Mike Berg
See...this makes sense to me....before the light sport pilot rule came about, (as a standard category aircraft) someone could take a 1350# Gross CONVERSION and take it back to say.....1300# gross after having it reweighed and balanced - I probably was never done as it wouldn't have made sense to do so, but as a standard category airplane that has been done all along.......as long as it was a CONVERSION........RIGHT?
MikeB
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by MikeB »

I'm taking this from the Lasher book but the 7DC 'may be' increased to 1350 with the NB gear. On the other hand, the 11CC (Chief) has a normal catagory rating most likely from the TC of 1350 so that's a different story in my book. I'm sure there are lots of 'interpetations' but it makes sense to me.

Mike Berg
MikeB
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by MikeB »

I'm taking this from the Lasher book but the 7DC 'may be' increased to 1350 with the NB gear. On the other hand, the 11CC (Chief) has a normal catagory rating most likely from the TC of 1350 so that's a different story in my book. I'm sure there are lots of 'interpetations' but it makes sense to me.

Mike Berg
Carl Prather
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Carl Prather »

I talked to Paul Agaliotis at lunch today and while he would have to look into the TC date proper, he thought a simple logbook entry with a weight and balance would be sufficient to return a Champ back to original certificated state with regarding to nobounce gear.

Don't forget to comment of the medical exemption rule!

Tx,
Carl Prather
Paul Agaliotis
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

The FAA posted that they would not approve standard category aircraft STC's to reduce the gross weight of an airplane, to meet LSA weights. Eligibility is determined by originally certificated gross weights. If you were certificated at 1220 and add equipment to raise it to 1300, great. If that equipment is removed you can't continue to operate at 1300.
It might be easier to think of it similar to a float installation. You need the STC for first installation but subsequent install/removal use a log entry.
Remember, the FAR's are written in a manner that tells you what is prohibited, not what is allowed.
Paul
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N86250
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by N86250 »

Below is the definition for light sport aircraft taken fron the FARs 1.1 General Definitions.
Note the phrase "since it's original certification, has continued to meet the following".
It can only be a light sport aircraft if "it has continued to meet 1320 pounds for aircraft not intended for operation on water".
By definition, if it's gross weight ever exceeded 1320 pounds, it cannot be a light sport aircraft.
You can modify and change models and legally change the gross weight up and down to your heart's content and still fly legally. But if the weight ever exceeded 1320 it cannot be legally flown as a light sport. It becomes a a certified aircraft whose gross weight was increased to more than 1320 and then was decreased to 1320 or less. It can still be flown as a certified airplane but it no longer fits the definition to be flown by a light sport pilot.
By the way, I was taught that any change to the gross weight was a major alteration and required a form 337 to be filed. I was also taught that when a major alteration was removed, another 337 was required to be filed for the removal.

The definition:
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or feathering propeller system if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
MikeB
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by MikeB »

Makes absolutely no sense to me but then when dealing with the feds 'what does?' If you can increase the GW with a 337 it only makes sense to me that you can also decrease the GW with a 337. I'd like to know the rational' (if any).

Mike
Al Hatz
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Al Hatz »

It can only be a light sport aircraft if "it has continued to meet 1320 pounds for aircraft not intended for operation on water".
By definition, if it's gross weight ever exceeded 1320 pounds, it cannot be a light sport aircraft.
You can modify and change models and legally change the gross weight up and down to your heart's content and still fly legally. But if the weight ever exceeded 1320 it cannot be legally flown as a light sport.
No, you're still not understanding it. Since it's original certification all of them (Aeronca's) still continued to meet it's original lower gross weight, nothing has changed that. Us people out in the field are not changing the Weight and Balance it was originally certified with, we can't, those documents (the Operations Limitations and TCDS) are issued by the FAA (or CAA at the time). We can however modify it according to STC's and the TCDS up or down depending on the equipment. But no matter what we do it still continues to meet the lower gross weights, depending on equipment of course, it doesn't matter if it's been modified up or modified down. You're substituting "ever exceeded" for "continued to meet", they're not same thing.
Al Hatz
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Al Hatz »

Let's go about this another way. Forget individual aircraft, put that out of your mind. Focus instead on the certification process, that's what the FAA is talking about in the definition. Nobody is going back in time and changing how any Aeronca was certified nor are they changing the original documents issued when it was certified. Since that it the case they all still continue to meet a lower gross weight standard.
You have to look at it as certification standards and process, not individual aircraft.
This is more for those aircraft certified under LSA regs but we can look at it it terms of Aeronca. What the definition means is American Champion can't retroactively change the 7FC or the 7JC TCDS with a lower gross weight so they meet LSA rules just cause they may want to. It's part of a certification process.
Last edited by Al Hatz on Tue Jul 31, 2012 16:43, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Agaliotis
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Re: My Super Champ is going up for sale.

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

I'm in agreement with Al. As a mechanic I cannot change any Type Certificated data.
The Aeronca is not, nor has ever been a Light Sport Aircraft, period. It is a Standard Category aircraft that meets LSA specifications. N86250 lists the definition for a Light Sport aircraft not Standard Category.
I'm not so certain that a landing gear replacement would actually meet the definition of a Major Repair or Alteration.
From Part 1;

Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Major repair means a repair:

(1) That, if improperly done, might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.
Paul
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