I really do appreciate all your comments and I will try to address them in order. I was pretty overwhelmed and it has helped my thought process a great deal.
My comments got so windy that I decided to break them down into smaller posts so I will eventually get to all who posted.
k,
I didn't mention that it has 7:00 tires, too big for my use but probably ok. I had this size on my 108-3 Stinson, a much heavier plane.
I never had much confidence in fabric punch tests but should probably get one.
The paint trim would have to be changed but I think I can render it bearable with a little white paint. I like white, but not on a Champ. I can live with it though.
I agree about Imron. It is is not a good choice on fabric. I prefer dope but it is too late for that. I applied Randolph yellow over yellow alkyd enamel on my first Champ but it was tricky. At the time I didn't know any better! I don't know if I could do that on Imron but it might actually be easier because I doubt that it would lift as badly as enamel.
I'll be flying it out of my pasture so I think the pneumatic tail wheel is a good idea. Nothing nearly as rough as your type of flying though.
Does your's have an O-200? Do you have/know of documentation to prove that particular prop is legal? I wondered about it too but haven't gotten around to checking it yet but I will.
Paul,
Thanks. I would appreciate the name of any local AI who knows Champs. From your post I surmise that the 25 years on the fabric is not a big problem? It has been hangared. I thought I knew CA pretty well but I had to look up San Martin!
Joe. A,
The tail cone area and rudder post areas are rust prone in the Stinson also but only if the plug is missing from the longeron ends. Is this also true of the Champ?
My 7AC rusted out at the lower rear part of the rudder bow.
Request Comments on Prospective CCM Purchase
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Paul Agaliotis
- Posts: 2589
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 18:49
- Location: San Martin, California
- Contact:
Gus,
As far as the fabric goes it should punch good. The fabric seems to last longer than the wood under it.
The only one I know in Arkansas would be Chris Ferguson. He could handle the job or set you on the right track. You can tell him I recomended him, He will probably double the price. LOL. He is in Evansville,AR. I hope this is close to your home base.
Paul
As far as the fabric goes it should punch good. The fabric seems to last longer than the wood under it.
The only one I know in Arkansas would be Chris Ferguson. He could handle the job or set you on the right track. You can tell him I recomended him, He will probably double the price. LOL. He is in Evansville,AR. I hope this is close to your home base.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046
Gus,
Yes, both the Champ and Chief have a rust problem in the tailcone areas, as well as the tailfeathers if they get water back there. Check the control surfaces and such in back and make sure that there are drain holes on the back of them.
Have seen several people who bought a plane that did not have any drain grommets on the surfaces and they collected water inside, and then rusted. Its repairable but if its done correctly in the first place does not happen as often.
I am not a big fan of punch tests either but need to check the fabric somehow. Would also take the punch to the lower part of the tubing in the back of the plane. If the tubes have rust there they usually will not pass a punch test.
Joe A
Yes, both the Champ and Chief have a rust problem in the tailcone areas, as well as the tailfeathers if they get water back there. Check the control surfaces and such in back and make sure that there are drain holes on the back of them.
Have seen several people who bought a plane that did not have any drain grommets on the surfaces and they collected water inside, and then rusted. Its repairable but if its done correctly in the first place does not happen as often.
I am not a big fan of punch tests either but need to check the fabric somehow. Would also take the punch to the lower part of the tubing in the back of the plane. If the tubes have rust there they usually will not pass a punch test.
Joe A
This is in response to the most recent posts, then I will respond to the earlier ones.
Paul,
I'll try to contact Chris Ferguson, but he is pretty far away, right on the OK line and about 160 air miles. Maybe he knows someone closer.
Jon,
I fly out of my pasture so I may keep the 7:00s but they seem too large to me. My Stinson used 7:00s and I flew it out of here and also the Rangemaster.
Joea,
Thanks for the tips on drain grommets, didn't even think to look for those. I'll add this to my next inspection.
Paul,
I'll try to contact Chris Ferguson, but he is pretty far away, right on the OK line and about 160 air miles. Maybe he knows someone closer.
Jon,
I fly out of my pasture so I may keep the 7:00s but they seem too large to me. My Stinson used 7:00s and I flew it out of here and also the Rangemaster.
Joea,
Thanks for the tips on drain grommets, didn't even think to look for those. I'll add this to my next inspection.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Dennis,
Please drop me a note at egusDOTcAT pokynetDOTcom and put Aeronca in the subject line. Based on the STC do you think that this prop is not approved?
Jon,
Pls see above posts.
Jay,
TSMOH is 450 hrs. I understand your concern, but it has only been flown abour 10-40 hrs/yr so it can't compare to your usage.
The log book loss doesn't particularly bother me on an airplane this oldand is very common. I owned the Stinson 18 yrs and it was missing all logbooks when I bought it. The CCM appears to have been completely rebuilt in '81 so anything prior to that is probably valuable only for historical purposes. I ordered a history CDs from the FAA.
I doubt the seller will go along with the annual idea but it is worth a try. He deals mostly in multi-million dollar bizjets and this is just a toy to him. In other words he isn't hurting for money any is in no great rush to sell it. Not a good situation for a buyer.
I have the O-200 Type Data Sheet and there are no props on it. Props are usually based on aircraft type. I, too, was a bit skeptical when I saw the prop was originally 76",. When it has been cut down the tip efficiency, the most efficient part of the prop, has been lost. I guess the high pitch is because of this long length. I am really not anxious to try to get FSDO approval.
Jim,
I can live with the color by changing the trim. I had to do the same thing on my Stinson and it is not a really big job.
I think you have a cruise prop, low HP planes don't do well with cruise props since they are so slow anyway I could never understand the logic of having one. I had a wood climb prop on my 7AC and it was great.
I'm an Airframe Mechanic with a bit of tube/fabric experience so not worried about that part but I do need an AI up to speed on the spar insp. Again, the log situation doesn't concern me very much. I haven't looked at a tail dragger in years that hasn't been ground looped and usually quite a few times. Logbooks are largely fiction anyway so the present condition is much more important in a simple airplane.
Please drop me a note at egusDOTcAT pokynetDOTcom and put Aeronca in the subject line. Based on the STC do you think that this prop is not approved?
Jon,
Pls see above posts.
Jay,
TSMOH is 450 hrs. I understand your concern, but it has only been flown abour 10-40 hrs/yr so it can't compare to your usage.
The log book loss doesn't particularly bother me on an airplane this oldand is very common. I owned the Stinson 18 yrs and it was missing all logbooks when I bought it. The CCM appears to have been completely rebuilt in '81 so anything prior to that is probably valuable only for historical purposes. I ordered a history CDs from the FAA.
I doubt the seller will go along with the annual idea but it is worth a try. He deals mostly in multi-million dollar bizjets and this is just a toy to him. In other words he isn't hurting for money any is in no great rush to sell it. Not a good situation for a buyer.
I have the O-200 Type Data Sheet and there are no props on it. Props are usually based on aircraft type. I, too, was a bit skeptical when I saw the prop was originally 76",. When it has been cut down the tip efficiency, the most efficient part of the prop, has been lost. I guess the high pitch is because of this long length. I am really not anxious to try to get FSDO approval.
Jim,
I can live with the color by changing the trim. I had to do the same thing on my Stinson and it is not a really big job.
I think you have a cruise prop, low HP planes don't do well with cruise props since they are so slow anyway I could never understand the logic of having one. I had a wood climb prop on my 7AC and it was great.
I'm an Airframe Mechanic with a bit of tube/fabric experience so not worried about that part but I do need an AI up to speed on the spar insp. Again, the log situation doesn't concern me very much. I haven't looked at a tail dragger in years that hasn't been ground looped and usually quite a few times. Logbooks are largely fiction anyway so the present condition is much more important in a simple airplane.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
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jim pacquin
buying the champ
re: cruise prop. My prop was a cruise prop and caused the champ to stagger into the air. I had it repitched to 44 from 48 which made a big difference but as I said, a champ is not likely to take ones breath away on take off. I would not pay over 15,000 for the airplane and at that I would be very cautious, doing exactly what the others told you about getting a sharp AI to go over it very carefully. Most log books are full of lies and or omissions but they do give a general history of the airplane and where its been. VERY important to most people buying it FROM you! the tires seem to me to be one of the few attiributes this aircraft has! the bigger the better if your on grass! I once bought a cessna 195 with weird log books but inthis case the paint was excellent. The airline captain who sold it to me was a drunk and a liar and it cost me alot of grief and money before I dumped it. BE CAREFUL. Good Luck!
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jim pacquin
buying aeronca (p.s.)
I forgot.....my aeronca was recovered using the stits process in 1991. you can see it buy googleing aeroncachamp.com. being irish it was just right for me! The paint has held up very well.....and....its always been hangared. the fellow i bought it from was very particular, had 22000 hours with TWA and log books were VERY important to him also. Best Jim.
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k mielke
my ccm has a c-90, mine was recoverd in the early 80's and has never been stored in a hanger,I put new spars and fabric on the wings along with lift struts last year, not bad just wanted peice of mind, I run the 8.50X 6 [in the summer]and like the extra give on the bumps,but i do avoid pavment, I paid 20K for mine but it had a 60hr motor and many bush mods stol kit being the best. alot of the mods are not papered but never has been a problem mabey it is more lax in Alaska than other places
Gus,
If the buyer will not go along with the annual inspection idea, then a very good pre purchase inspection is needed. I am very familiar with a Champ that had a pre purchase inspection but one from a mechanic who did not care or was being paid under the table by the seller.
New owner flew it across the country to have it restored. He is lucky he did die enroute, as the entire tail assy was almost being held on by the fabric. The rusted tubing in the back was unbelieveable, yet it passed a PPI! It took a year and over $20k in parts and labor to bring back to where it should have been.
Get someone who knows tube and fabric, or educate yourself and make sure you have a good airplane. One excellent tool to use here is an automatic center punch, the spring loaded type. Take one of these and "punch" the bottom of the longerons in the tail on the bottom. If you get a good solid feel, then thats good, but if its goes into the metal at all then you are looking at a restoration and that should be reflected in the price.
Between this inspection, confirming that there are drain gromets on all tail surfaces to let water out, and a good visual inspection, you can feel comfortable with what you are buying.
The main spar inspection is not normally a big deal, especially with the planes using a C85 or smaller engine. Unless the plane has been ground looped or someone has been flying upside down in it, most have no problems with their spars.
Joe A
If the buyer will not go along with the annual inspection idea, then a very good pre purchase inspection is needed. I am very familiar with a Champ that had a pre purchase inspection but one from a mechanic who did not care or was being paid under the table by the seller.
New owner flew it across the country to have it restored. He is lucky he did die enroute, as the entire tail assy was almost being held on by the fabric. The rusted tubing in the back was unbelieveable, yet it passed a PPI! It took a year and over $20k in parts and labor to bring back to where it should have been.
Get someone who knows tube and fabric, or educate yourself and make sure you have a good airplane. One excellent tool to use here is an automatic center punch, the spring loaded type. Take one of these and "punch" the bottom of the longerons in the tail on the bottom. If you get a good solid feel, then thats good, but if its goes into the metal at all then you are looking at a restoration and that should be reflected in the price.
Between this inspection, confirming that there are drain gromets on all tail surfaces to let water out, and a good visual inspection, you can feel comfortable with what you are buying.
The main spar inspection is not normally a big deal, especially with the planes using a C85 or smaller engine. Unless the plane has been ground looped or someone has been flying upside down in it, most have no problems with their spars.
Joe A
Gus,
Low flying hours per year is not something that I would accept for the necessity of having to have each of the cylinders partially topped, especially with the low hours since major - even if that was several years ago.
Be that as it may - please don't disregard that unless you can find an approved 337 that put that prop on that airplane then the prop is not legal on the airplane. New prop = big money.
Low flying hours per year is not something that I would accept for the necessity of having to have each of the cylinders partially topped, especially with the low hours since major - even if that was several years ago.
Be that as it may - please don't disregard that unless you can find an approved 337 that put that prop on that airplane then the prop is not legal on the airplane. New prop = big money.
This is in response to these latest posts. this is getting hard to keep up with!
jim,
I had a climb prop on my 7AC A-75 in Puerto Rico and it would take off in a very short distance and climb well even in that heat and humidity. The guys in the tower were always amazed.
There is no way I can get this airplane for $15k, $19 maybe, but no less.
k,
What was the condition of your fabric when you replaced the spars?
joea,
That is a good idea about using an automatic center punch, I'll take mine in my pocket.
Jay,
I won't buy it unless I can confirm that the prop is legal. Also I want to check closely when I get the FAA CD to see if any 337s are missing from the owner's records.
I can't agree with you about the low flying hours. That is one of the worst things you can do to an engine, and airframe for that matter, especially if it is in a damp climate. Just flying it a short time airs out the airframe.
Continentals are very bad to rust camshafts, rocker shafts, valve guides, valve stems and cylinder walls when not used. I had to major the O-470 in my Navion because of corrosion caused by being stored in a hangar with a partial dirt floor and two years of no use.
jim,
I had a climb prop on my 7AC A-75 in Puerto Rico and it would take off in a very short distance and climb well even in that heat and humidity. The guys in the tower were always amazed.
There is no way I can get this airplane for $15k, $19 maybe, but no less.
k,
What was the condition of your fabric when you replaced the spars?
joea,
That is a good idea about using an automatic center punch, I'll take mine in my pocket.
Jay,
I won't buy it unless I can confirm that the prop is legal. Also I want to check closely when I get the FAA CD to see if any 337s are missing from the owner's records.
I can't agree with you about the low flying hours. That is one of the worst things you can do to an engine, and airframe for that matter, especially if it is in a damp climate. Just flying it a short time airs out the airframe.
Continentals are very bad to rust camshafts, rocker shafts, valve guides, valve stems and cylinder walls when not used. I had to major the O-470 in my Navion because of corrosion caused by being stored in a hangar with a partial dirt floor and two years of no use.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
This the last part of my response to the very first long string of posts. I probably should have started another string or maybe just posted all my response in one instead of dividing it up.
Jim, grumps and mike,
I agree about Imron and enamel. I prefer dope every time but don't find many these days. I had always heard good things about Stitts. I understood that Stitts calls for dope top coats but that people use paint anyway.
It shows no ringworms, just those two very small peels on the vertical fin. I think those can be patched up with rejuvenator or thick dope but may be wrong. I've never tried to work with Imron but I've rejuvenated or coated over enamel with dope. Tricky but possible. After I did it I read that it couldn't be done but was too dumb at the time to know I couldn't do it. Did it on my 7AC and a Schweizer 2-22A in Puerto Rico. Also rejuvenated the wing tops of a 7GC at the same time.
I don't mind a few problems, that is expected with an old AC, but I am in no mood for a lot of down time for major wing repairs or recovering. I like to fly, not restore. I know some guys really like restoring but I'm not one of those. If it looks decent and runs well and is safe I'm happy.
My choice is an 85hp yellow and red original trim with no electrics. Propping is not a concern and the simpler the better. I had enough of complex systems with my Navion Rangemaster. A great XC airplane and a delight for long distances but maintenance intensive.and cash hungry.
Jim, grumps and mike,
I agree about Imron and enamel. I prefer dope every time but don't find many these days. I had always heard good things about Stitts. I understood that Stitts calls for dope top coats but that people use paint anyway.
It shows no ringworms, just those two very small peels on the vertical fin. I think those can be patched up with rejuvenator or thick dope but may be wrong. I've never tried to work with Imron but I've rejuvenated or coated over enamel with dope. Tricky but possible. After I did it I read that it couldn't be done but was too dumb at the time to know I couldn't do it. Did it on my 7AC and a Schweizer 2-22A in Puerto Rico. Also rejuvenated the wing tops of a 7GC at the same time.
I don't mind a few problems, that is expected with an old AC, but I am in no mood for a lot of down time for major wing repairs or recovering. I like to fly, not restore. I know some guys really like restoring but I'm not one of those. If it looks decent and runs well and is safe I'm happy.
My choice is an 85hp yellow and red original trim with no electrics. Propping is not a concern and the simpler the better. I had enough of complex systems with my Navion Rangemaster. A great XC airplane and a delight for long distances but maintenance intensive.and cash hungry.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
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