Advice required Purchasing Champ vs Cheif on floats

[mark chandler]

Hello everyone, Mark here from Toronto Canada. I am a non-pilot and I am looking at purchasing either a Champ or Chief and then learning to fly. I currently have a choice of the following two planes and I am not sure which one is a better choice. I have been doing about 3 months research so far. Your experienced opinions would greatly help.

There is a 1946 Super Cheif 11-CC with EDO 1400 floats with wheels and skiis. It has a Continetal 0-200. Wings redone in 2002 with Millman metal Spars. Engine has 1900 hrs (plane has 2250 TT. Engine had new crankshaft 150 hrs (8 yrs ago) and 3 new cylinders and a new carb. Wings have VG and what appears to be droop tips on wings. I know this plane has been well maintained. I have spoken with the previous owner and the last 3 mechanics. (Also, For winter use if stored outside can wings be covered with VG and droop tips?)

There is a 1958 7EC Champ with Continental 90 HP with EDO 1400 and wheels. 4650 Hrs TT and 1300 SMOH in 1994. One wing had a new wood spar replaced in 2000 (as I understand without recovering the wing). There is an Auto fuel STC for this. I have not yet seen this plane. Both are within a few hours of me. Both are asking the same price. (is there any advantage to having wood spars?)

I obviously know of the seating and visibility differences. I am 170 pounds. My potential instructor seems concerned about the chief because there are no co-pilot brakes. He would be much more comfortable having dual brakes that the Champ has. I personally think I would feel more comfortable with side by side seating but this opinion is coming from inexperience. I am just thinking socially. I have a mechanic to check out the plane for me but I need to decide which one to have him look at first.

Thanks in advance for all your opinions.

[WWhunter]

I'm no expert but I'll see if I can give a couple of points to consider.

First off...the Chief has a high time engine, unless I am misunderstanding the part about new crankshaft and cylinders. Seems like it should have been majored when all that was done. If not, expect to spend some serious money soon for an engine rebuild.

Second....I have a Champ and a 172 Cessna. I LOVE the tandem seating of the Champ. You just feel more "one" with the plane vs. side by side seating. The view is much better and with the Chief, the side by side seating is pretty close. Unless you really like your passenger you will be rubbing elbows.

It is also my understanding that the C-90 is a better engine as far as torque goes. This is especially good on floats.

Overall the planes seem to be pretty comparable. I do like the idea of the metal spars and the VG's on the Chief. But there is nothing wrong with the wood spars on the Champ either.

Only other thing I "think" is when it comes to resale, the Champ's usually bring more money then a comparable Chief.

Just my opinion.
Good Luck,
Keith

[Mnflyer]

Hi Mark, I agree with Kieth's post. I also don't understand the 100 hp not being overhauled at the time the crank was changed to install a crank the engine has to be completely disassembed and new bearings installed etc.
The Champ with the new spar would have to have the wing with the new spar recovered, they may mean that the other wing was not recovered.
I have a Champ 7DC with a O-200 / 100 hp engine and I really like it, but if the plane would have had a 90 hp I'd be just as happy or may be happier (with the 90 hp I would not be required to do the wing spar AD every annual), and the 90 swings a longer prop and has more torque great for float flying.
I also like tandem seating the visability is so much nicer, but both planes are good airplanes, I would go with my mechanic and check them both over get a test flt in both and see which comes out the best.

[nowlen]

the chief has a door on each side and some time you may need the left one when docking bernie

[mark chandler]

Thanks for your opinions. Just to clarify, the way I undestand it, the left wing fabric was peeled back to replace the wood spar and the fabric was then re-attached. Does this sound right. I am going to look at this plane on Saturday. I did not know it has only 1 door. But at least it has dual brakes which I am told is important for training. I think it might be the dual brakes that help in my decision. Or can I learn easily enough on the Cheif with no brakes on the right side?

Also the Champ was used by the previous owner for training. Does this mean the plane may have had some abuse. I am assuming this may be why the Total Time is much higher.

[MikeB]

Mark,
Don't believe it's possible (0r at least very difficult) to replace a wood spar by just peeling the fabric back. I'm wondering if the spar wasn't probably repaired, most likely at the bow end. Then it's possible that the fabric was peeled back somewhat and reattached. I'd approach this carefully as there could be other damage in the spar if that's the case.
Your best bet is to get someone familiar with wood spars and Aeroncas to do a inspection and a good look at the log books and not just any AP or AI, most of the 'new ones' don't know older aircraft.

Regarding being used for a trainer, I wouldn't worry about that part as that's what the Champs were basically built for. But do your self a favor and get a good person involved before you put your money down.

Mike Berg

[Ron Babos]

Mark: Have fun with whatever choice you make. All the previous advice should help. Noticed you're from T.O. I live about 100 miles from you, in Woodstock.
Ron

[gcgilpin]

Mark:

Send me a 'private message'. I live in Sudbury and went through almost exactly the same decision recently ... and learned alot in the process. I'd be glad to give you my opinion.


Gord

[big chief 48]

Hi Mark. I have had a 48 chief (11CC) for the past 12 years. It was rebuilt from the ground up. It has the C-85. I love the chief for all the reasons why champ pilots do not care for it. It is nice to talk to the person next to you. You can easily reach "stuff" next to you. IT IS FASTER. Mine gps's 95-102 m.p.h. at 2300-2450 rpm. I just put the plane on floats. It took almost two years and a lot of work to get all the fittings. 85-90 mph. I am 215 and my friend 220 and it got off with full fuel. Its no barnburner, but it does fine for what I need it for (fun) I also like the look of the straight belly. Both planes are great in that they will not bite you in the butt-very forgiving. It is a really great plane on ski's If you still have any questions-- www.papaboris@surfmk.com

[Jody Wittmeyer]

You don't need brakes on either side with floats.