Hello from the Great white north (Calgary) just took delivery of my Champ and am loving it!! 7ac converted to a bc (85hp), have owned a Cessna 140 for the past year, but this plane is alot more fun (imho).
Anyways,great site, i was a little worried that the Aeroncas would not have the same internet following as the Cessna's but this site has proved me wrong. I am still very new at the Champ game but i already have a ton of questions, here are a few of them:
1: my plane has the stromberg carb, the 140 had the Marvel. I don't seem to have any issues with the Stromberg yet, but from what i know,the stromberg seems to be the inferior carb,Why is this? eveyone i have talked to has told me to basically throw away the stromberg and get the marvel carb, so once again, why is the stromberg considered to be a bad carb?
2: I realize that these planes are best low and slow, but iam curious as to what the service ceiling is on a champ with the 85hp engine. or simply how high have ya all been? we do have a few mountains around here, and i plan on doing a bit of flying around/over them.
3: this one has been bothering me......is it normal to be running out of elevator authority when in the flare to land? I have been practicing my short fields and when i approach at around 65mph and slow to 60 crossing the fence the stick is right in my lap and i keep on sinking. good thing i have the NB gear!!!.
This is with just me in the front seat (190lbs) and a full header tank (13 gal) if i approach faster,ie, 70 or so it is alot better or if i keep the power on until i arrest the sink rate or trim almost full nose down (reposition the trim tab) these all seem to help. But when i approach at the lower speeds with the pressure off the stick (this is normally with the trim full aft) and i chop the power LOOK OUT!!!.
From what i have read, this sounds like it might be a normal champ thing, when in cruise at around 2200rpm and 85-90 ind, the trim is right in the middle and flys nicely hands off. My Cessna was never like this, i could approach at 60mph,whch is very slow for that wing, and still have ample elev control. so right now been a rookie, the Champ is using more length landing than my Cessna (damn heal brakes). but the Champ sure gets you airborne faster!!!.
I am sure my short landing technique will improve with practice. so bottom line is...what do you guys approach at (slowest speed) hows your elevator authority in the flare? with just you and full gas. how should i check my c of g. sounds like some guys recommend a specific airspeed power off with trim full aft....by the way, my rigging is correct, airplane has just been fully rebuilt weight and balance documents are correct and within limits. airspeed indicator is also correct.
Thanks again veryone and looking forard to many more conversations.
Cheers!!!!
Wade
1st hello !! many questions
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Nathan K. Hammond
- Posts: 2371
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 00:22
- Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
- Contact:
Howdy Wade, glad to have you aboard!
1) Strombergs have a habit of leaking past the needle when sitting. It can be fixed by re-lapping the needle and seat, or switching to a rubber tipped needle. Strombergs also have an inferrior mixture control that doesn't work; called a "Back Suction Mixture" most people safety wire them full rich. Marvels are great because it has a functional mixture and they're darn near bullet proof. Only draw back to the Marvel is the price, big $.
2)We actually had a great discussion about this a couple years ago. Personally I took my 65hp champ up to 13,500 MSL and was still climbing, but was about froze (middle of January, bright idea
)
3) A common problem with the Champs, with any kind of weight in the back, it gets better. With a C85 up front, and solo (240lbs), I can just barely get a 3 point landing. So if there's any kind of wind, I almost always wheel it on out of necessity. I tend to hold 60mph in the pattern with full aft trim and slow to 55 over the fence, holding pressure on the stick. If a high sink is developing, I'll catch it with a blast of power. Typically, I can get down and stopped in 800-1000 feet (over a 50ft. obstical) with no breaking.
** A gap seal on the elevator or even better, VG's will help with the elevator authority.
Glad to hear you were converted over to aeronca's.
nkh
1) Strombergs have a habit of leaking past the needle when sitting. It can be fixed by re-lapping the needle and seat, or switching to a rubber tipped needle. Strombergs also have an inferrior mixture control that doesn't work; called a "Back Suction Mixture" most people safety wire them full rich. Marvels are great because it has a functional mixture and they're darn near bullet proof. Only draw back to the Marvel is the price, big $.
2)We actually had a great discussion about this a couple years ago. Personally I took my 65hp champ up to 13,500 MSL and was still climbing, but was about froze (middle of January, bright idea
)3) A common problem with the Champs, with any kind of weight in the back, it gets better. With a C85 up front, and solo (240lbs), I can just barely get a 3 point landing. So if there's any kind of wind, I almost always wheel it on out of necessity. I tend to hold 60mph in the pattern with full aft trim and slow to 55 over the fence, holding pressure on the stick. If a high sink is developing, I'll catch it with a blast of power. Typically, I can get down and stopped in 800-1000 feet (over a 50ft. obstical) with no breaking.
** A gap seal on the elevator or even better, VG's will help with the elevator authority.
Glad to hear you were converted over to aeronca's.
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
New Champ owner
Hi Wade welcome and congrats on your new plane. 
, I agree with Nathan, the Stromberg is an ok carb. I have many hrs flying with them never really had any problem as posted some tend to leak but I've had Marvels leak also, guess I just turn the fuel valve off cures that, the mixture control is weak, if your into leaning then the Stromberg isn't the best.
As for the heavy elevator yes the Champ is heavier than other planes and the trim is weaker at slower speeds. I am about 20 lb more than you and haven't run out of aft stick but I tend to hold 65 mph indicated in the pattern and on final 60 to 65 I have no problem 3 pointing it (Most of the time
), my Champ has a 100 hp Cont. with electrical, the battery is located aft the rear seat which helps with CG and elevator feel. I really wonder how a Champ would feel with an aero. balanced elevator, like the later models.
Have a great time with your new Champ 
PS: once you get use to the heel brakes they are as comfortable as toe brakes, at least for me, does you plane have hyd or mechanical brakes? Mine has the cleveland drum mechanicals they work good and I forgot but I generally get down and stopped in less than 800 ft, using brakes.
, I agree with Nathan, the Stromberg is an ok carb. I have many hrs flying with them never really had any problem as posted some tend to leak but I've had Marvels leak also, guess I just turn the fuel valve off cures that, the mixture control is weak, if your into leaning then the Stromberg isn't the best.As for the heavy elevator yes the Champ is heavier than other planes and the trim is weaker at slower speeds. I am about 20 lb more than you and haven't run out of aft stick but I tend to hold 65 mph indicated in the pattern and on final 60 to 65 I have no problem 3 pointing it (Most of the time
), my Champ has a 100 hp Cont. with electrical, the battery is located aft the rear seat which helps with CG and elevator feel. I really wonder how a Champ would feel with an aero. balanced elevator, like the later models.Have a great time with your new Champ
PS: once you get use to the heel brakes they are as comfortable as toe brakes, at least for me, does you plane have hyd or mechanical brakes? Mine has the cleveland drum mechanicals they work good and I forgot but I generally get down and stopped in less than 800 ft, using brakes.
GB MN.Flyer
Flying a Champ 7DC and a HKS Kitfox III
Flying a Champ 7DC and a HKS Kitfox III
landings
Welcome to the group! The Champ is a great plane but has it's quirks. A couple of comments:
1.) When you 3-point it (with just you in the front) it helps to carry a little power into the flare. This will allow you to make a nice controlled approach and give you a little more elevator authority. If you've ever noticed how far down the main wheels hang (with the NB gear) it can make it hard to get all three to touch at the same time. I prefer to wheel land it on pavement... it does a beautiful job.
When I installed a C85-12 (and later a starter and battery) I put the battery behind the rear seat (where it is in the EC) and that helps a bit. I fly out of a 1300 foot strip with no problems.
2.) Stromberg versus Marvel - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. A mixture control would be nice but hasn't been a problem for me in 22 years flying my Champ.
3.) I've had my Champ to 8500 at full gross. I could have gone higher but there isn't much need here in Michigan.
4.) Although I have thousands of hours in Cessnas and the like, I've actually come to like the heel brakes. You are much less likely to apply brakes when you don't want to. I did convert to hydraulic clevelands which are a great improvement over any of the mechanicals.
Tim
1.) When you 3-point it (with just you in the front) it helps to carry a little power into the flare. This will allow you to make a nice controlled approach and give you a little more elevator authority. If you've ever noticed how far down the main wheels hang (with the NB gear) it can make it hard to get all three to touch at the same time. I prefer to wheel land it on pavement... it does a beautiful job.
When I installed a C85-12 (and later a starter and battery) I put the battery behind the rear seat (where it is in the EC) and that helps a bit. I fly out of a 1300 foot strip with no problems.
2.) Stromberg versus Marvel - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. A mixture control would be nice but hasn't been a problem for me in 22 years flying my Champ.
3.) I've had my Champ to 8500 at full gross. I could have gone higher but there isn't much need here in Michigan.
4.) Although I have thousands of hours in Cessnas and the like, I've actually come to like the heel brakes. You are much less likely to apply brakes when you don't want to. I did convert to hydraulic clevelands which are a great improvement over any of the mechanicals.
Tim
Hi Wade,
Welcome to the site. Lots of good information here. I can't speak of how high a Champ will go as I've only had mine up to around 3500MSL. With a 65 horse, it seems to take too long and I'm fairly light, around 160#. I see no problem with the Stromberg Carb unless you might need to lean it out for high altitude. Regarding landing (I have conventional oleo) when I'm solo I can usually push the trim all the way back and I try to be less than 55 over the fence, generally look left and right of the nose to gauge my height and then straighten out the nose before 3 pointing. If I come in much faster I'll bounce every time. It does seem like it won't settle in if you flare high, but rather the bottom drops out. I flew a Cherokee for 25 years and they allow you to get pretty sloppy. The Champs seems to want things right or it's going to let you know. Either bounces or takes off for the weeds if the nose isn't straight.
No problem with the heel brakes once you're used to them in my opinion.
Mike Berg
Welcome to the site. Lots of good information here. I can't speak of how high a Champ will go as I've only had mine up to around 3500MSL. With a 65 horse, it seems to take too long and I'm fairly light, around 160#. I see no problem with the Stromberg Carb unless you might need to lean it out for high altitude. Regarding landing (I have conventional oleo) when I'm solo I can usually push the trim all the way back and I try to be less than 55 over the fence, generally look left and right of the nose to gauge my height and then straighten out the nose before 3 pointing. If I come in much faster I'll bounce every time. It does seem like it won't settle in if you flare high, but rather the bottom drops out. I flew a Cherokee for 25 years and they allow you to get pretty sloppy. The Champs seems to want things right or it's going to let you know. Either bounces or takes off for the weeds if the nose isn't straight.
No problem with the heel brakes once you're used to them in my opinion.
Mike Berg
"If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money"
I haven't noticed the elevator problem yet. I wonder if my 135 lbs. is the reason. I have an 85hp with no electrical in my Champ. The fellow I bought the Champ from always wheel landed on pavement. He advised me to do the same. I am still learning how to handle my Champ as well. I only have 2 hrs solo in it but I have flown other tail draggers some.
Jim in Arkansas
Jim in Arkansas
Questions
Boeing: Worked on both Stromberg and Marvel for small Continentals. From my experience the Stromberg is a better designed carb if it is setup correctly. It does lack the typical mixture control and cutoff the marvel has. Leaking at the needle is more of a laziness issue with the rebuilder. Most won't take the time to lap the needle and seat. With the neoprene needle, they didn't leak, which is what the Marvel has. Two things that stand apart on the two carbs is that the throttle shaft almost never wears out in the Stromberg, and it has a good positive venturi retention. Can't say that with the c85 Marvel that I just rebuilt. Parts prices are out to lunch on the Marvels. Both have good and bad points.
Ron
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
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mike newall
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 06:32
- Location: UK
- Contact:
1st Champ - 65hp, very light, I could approach at 45 and land in about 4 times the fuselage length with a bit of power. Had that one up to 11,500 in lovely wave one winters day - got up there in about 15 minutes, took 40 to get down again !
2nd Champ - 85hp, no electrics, bit heavier. Approach at 55 and wheel on nearly all the time unless I wanted a real short landing, then I would carry power to the ground and approach at 50.
The c of g is very important - I flew a real dog over here in the UK, had 85hp, battery up front, boat anchor starter, generator - I had full back trim on final and was still using stick force - landing roll was nearly 3 times what mine took.
Now I have a 150hp Citabria ( 7GCBC ), I still operate off the same 1300 foot grass strip but I use a bit more on landing, but with the flaps on a smooth air day, I can approach on the stall warner with the airspeed on the zero stop - quite bizarre. I have checked the ASI and at normal speeds it is OK, it must be the AOA that is giving a false reading.
Decathlon should appear this summer - that will use a little more but - Oh, what fun !
2nd Champ - 85hp, no electrics, bit heavier. Approach at 55 and wheel on nearly all the time unless I wanted a real short landing, then I would carry power to the ground and approach at 50.
The c of g is very important - I flew a real dog over here in the UK, had 85hp, battery up front, boat anchor starter, generator - I had full back trim on final and was still using stick force - landing roll was nearly 3 times what mine took.
Now I have a 150hp Citabria ( 7GCBC ), I still operate off the same 1300 foot grass strip but I use a bit more on landing, but with the flaps on a smooth air day, I can approach on the stall warner with the airspeed on the zero stop - quite bizarre. I have checked the ASI and at normal speeds it is OK, it must be the AOA that is giving a false reading.
Decathlon should appear this summer - that will use a little more but - Oh, what fun !
Boeing,
Did you buy the Champ off of George Murray south of Calgary (Okotoks, etc)..anyway email off line at wmsnet@telusplanet.net...located at Tofield, Alta..Built one champ and am rebuilding a second...phone me at 780-895-2813...we can discuss the procedures and problems...have been flying Champs for 37 years...have a fuselage jig ( probably only one in canada, A frame oleo jig , etc , etc..nuff for now if you are interested..Bill
Did you buy the Champ off of George Murray south of Calgary (Okotoks, etc)..anyway email off line at wmsnet@telusplanet.net...located at Tofield, Alta..Built one champ and am rebuilding a second...phone me at 780-895-2813...we can discuss the procedures and problems...have been flying Champs for 37 years...have a fuselage jig ( probably only one in canada, A frame oleo jig , etc , etc..nuff for now if you are interested..Bill
I have a 115HP full electric. I can't trim for power-off, even with a heavy load in the back - it takes a fair bit of stick force to hold it level. With 8.50s, it'll 3-point power off, although the stick is ALL the way back to get it there. With the 31s, I have to hold a little power to get 3-point. When I'm working something short I use around 45-50 on final with however much power I need to keep a reasonable descent rate, and always land tail-first if I let it. I can work out of 300' with me and 26gal fuel pretty comfortably. 60-65 on final makes things happen a LOT slower, and is probably a good starting point if you're new to the airplane.
If you're running out of elevator you probably have rigging or other problems.
If you're running out of elevator you probably have rigging or other problems.
I fly a fairly fat EC. Even with just me (190+) in the front, I have lots of elevator authority. I can easily put the tailwheel on before the mains (8.50s) even power off.
I tend to get slow on final, with a bit of a nose-up attitude. It makes is very simple to control both descent rate and speed that way: power for up/down and stick for fast/slow.
I can get in pretty short if I hold about 45 on the ASI with a bit of power (throttle hand can be very busy) and the nose *way* up in the air. A 200-foot roll is not too difficult. The tail comes up with braking, though.
Jon B.
I tend to get slow on final, with a bit of a nose-up attitude. It makes is very simple to control both descent rate and speed that way: power for up/down and stick for fast/slow.
I can get in pretty short if I hold about 45 on the ASI with a bit of power (throttle hand can be very busy) and the nose *way* up in the air. A 200-foot roll is not too difficult. The tail comes up with braking, though.
Jon B.
Jon B.
Mine is 135 hp, 1650 gross, but typical weight around 1450. 78-41 prop, Crosswind Stol, Carl Bahn gear. Takeoff around 175 ft, varying greatly with conditions. Landing about 150-200 ft using 50 indicated on short final and heavy braking. Always a power approach, chopping power at the landing point. Easy to land tailwheel first, but I avoid in rocky, rough field conditions.