Maximum Crosswind

[MikeB]

The responses are pretty interesting but it looks like we're about in the same ball park. We respect our little tail draggers on hard surface. Should mention and most of you already know is that little power will often help line things up in the flare if necessary. I'm hardly an expert on landing the Champ on hard surface although I do it as necessary. Otherwise, I look for grass. I have the big tail which may tend to push the back end around a little more than the smaller tail. Especially at low speed and when taxing but that's what brakes are for, I guess.

Mike

[Roger Anderson]

Actually, in the day when the tailwheel was the standard landing gear on most aircraft, these aircraft were not intended to be landed in crosswinds. Most GA airports were large grass or dirt fields providing the ability to land into the wind in most directions. Commerical airports were practically all designed with several runways, frequently triangle design, again providing a choice close to the wind direction. With the advent of tricycle gear, airports became frequently just a single runway design...and we suddenly had to start landing in crosswinds not really expected from our aircraft. So don't be ashamed if you feel a bit limited in how much cross wind you wish to tackle. Our aircraft were not really intended to handle those winds originally.

[MikeB]

I think my worst was a 60 degree gusting to 37 kt (or so flight service said). I was in my Cherokee returning from a church convention in Green Bay with our pastor. I only had a few hours in the Cherokee at the time but was all lined up with the runway and starting to flare out when the runway disappeared. I pretty much ran out of rudder and ailerons. Made a quick go around and set it down fine, if firm the second time.

Mike

[Dan1940Chief]

I think my worst was a 60 degree gusting to 37 kt (or so flight service said). I was in my Cherokee returning from a church convention in Green Bay with our pastor. I only had a few hours in the Cherokee at the time but was all lined up with the runway and starting to flare out when the runway disappeared. I pretty much ran out of rudder and ailerons. Made a quick go around and set it down fine, if firm the second time.

Mike

In a trike I'll fly in just about any wind under 50 knots, but my 850 lb Chief isn't so forgiving!!

[jc pacquin]

Most small airports I am familiar with were and are single runway airports. Pilots had no choice other than to be adept at landing in pretty severe cross winds. To say these aircraft were not "designed" to land in cross winds is debatable at least. Only LARGE commercial strips had triangular layouts. Reason? COST. The majority of small airports operated (and still do) on a shoe string. In the fiftys, two things were very common. 1. Pilots landing, often times on one wheel in a strong cross wind with little hesitation. 2. People thought nothing of hand proping an airplane. Today both are rare. This was and still is a matter of instruction. Personally, flying a T-Craft or a cub, or a champ in winds over 12-15 mph, to me , is not fun but real work and sort of dumb. For that matter, flying a Mooney or a Bonanza in winds around 30 to 40 would also be a no brainer for me. I'd get on Southwest. I have always flown for fun, not for getting into some kind of a jackpot. I can land a T-Craft or a champ on asphalt or grass. It was all the way you were taught. I was always taught (1952-53) NEVER to wheel land as you have to literally land twice. In the Stearman this was (for ME) a good rule as it would like to ground loop in an instant if you were not on top of it in a cross wind. I NEVER flew it if the winds were over 15. Economics were involved here as I could not have afforded to fix it if I'd wrapped it up badly! Then again, Ive seen Stearmans and 180 Cessnas landed in strong cross winds time and again by pilots much better than myself! JP

[Roger Anderson]

Actually, I was taking the process back some years before your time even (late 20s thru early 40s) , to the beginning of the popular designs. The '31 C3 I had comes to mind. Although the tail skid had been replaced by a tailwheel, Aeronca had assumed it would be taken off and landed into the wind. Even with a tailwheel, the big balloon low pressure tires insured it was not a crosswind airplane. How we have come to push the airplanes to other limits as years progressed was not what I was intending to referencing. Yea, "hey, can ya gimme a prop", or "hey, ya need a prop", is not something heard anymore.

[MikeB]

That was my biggest problem at Oshkosh a couple of years ago (finding someone I trusted to give my Champ a prop). Normally, I'd chock it and prop it off myself but with all the people and planes around when I was getting ready to leave I had to find someone in the camping area who was able to sit in the seat and hold the brakes while I propped it off. Exactly why I plan on putting a starting system on my L16. Nornally I stand behind the prop on the right side if I'm by myself and it's in the 'easy starting mode' (not half warm).

I always wished they had a grass strip at Oshkosh for those of us who aren't all that comfortable with hard surface and crosswinds. I do it but it raises the 'pucker factor' .

Mike

[Tailwheelpilot]

I have to admit most of my training time so far has been in a J-3.......please don't beat me too bad. I had a chance to get some time in a 7-AC and fell in love with it. That is what I plan to purchase. I live in a community with a "neighbor" and a 1900' grass strip. So at the strip that most of my primary flying was done in X-winds with the sock out straight.....usually in a crosswind near 90 deg to the only active. I am still a bit leery about it but have become used to it. "Stick all the way back..ailerons into the wind...the aircraft can fly and be effected greatly at low speed" my instructor's words I hear in my mind landing......I wouldn't trade my instruction experiences for anything from what I have been told by many others in the flying community I live around. I feel lucky to have had an instructor that felt like we were flying and not too worried about the wind. It is his words "It's just a little wind...it won't hurt you". I am very appreciative to him in sharing and helping convey his methods and theology of flying. I have flown in some rather uncomfortable weather. All part of the initiation I guess. Most landings on hardtop unless we flew over to his home strip....uphill grass.

[Holcombe]

I don't ask, and seldom know what the cross wind is. If I can hold the center line on short final, I figure I will be able to hold it on the ground. If I couldn't hold it, I'd warn trafic to stay clear and land into the wind. The roll out would be so short you could put it anywhere. You are PIC, it's your option. No one is going to say boo when you are safely on the ground after doing what needed to be done.

[sburke]

I will take on a 9 kt cross wind component in my L16 using a three point but I have done a wheel landing with an L2 (TaylorCraft Mil version of Cub) at 70 mph with a 14kt crosswind followed with a go-around.. I have never attempted a wheel landing in the L16 (7BCM), does anyone have any advise? I have heard that it is not advised because of the oleo landing gear.
Regards,
Sam

[WWhunter]

500TT, 100Floats, and 100TW....I am not comfortable at much more then 10kts. I fly from my own strip that is short (1000') and has trees on both ends so it can get a little dicey at times. Biggest issues is the strip is oriented NE-SW and the winds here are predominatly from the N-NW!!! So I almost always have some sort of crosswind. I only fly if it is comfortable.

Clive,
I am building a Murphy Rebel and had never heard that the Rebel was easy to nose over. Guess I need to check into that before it ever flies.

WW

[vintageair]

I have never attempted a wheel landing in the L16 (7BCM), does anyone have any advise? I have heard that it is not advised because of the oleo landing gear.
Regards,
Sam

I've been doing them but yes - they are kind of weird because of the gear. The no-bounce oleo's have about half a foot of travel and when the wheels first contact the ground they are all pigeon-toed (looks like a Helio Courier) so they make these squishy-squirmy noises and you really have to push forward to get the gear to compress all the way. Also they don't always compress at the same time, I don't know what it looks like to the folks on the ground watching but it looks pretty odd from inside. For me, the no-bounce seems to work best if I just drop it in 3-point. Even if I drop it in pretty hard they don't seem to mind and all the monkey motion is dispensed with forthright.

As for crosswinds, we pretty much always have wind where I'm at. I guess that's why they put all those windmills on top of the hills next to the airport. But there are two runways that I guess were planned out pretty well because you really never have to deal with a 90 deg crosswind. Because of that every crosswind has a headwind component so the stronger they are the slower your landing speed. So I don't have any problems with 20-25 knot winds out there (which we see a lot of) but anything over that and it 's more a problem with taxiing back to the hangar after you've landed than anything else. Some days out there I wouldn't even dare open the hangar doors!

[MikeB]

I've never done a landing with the 'no bounce' gear. My present Champ has conventional oleo and seems to handle pretty well on the ground although I still grit my teeth a bit on hard surface with any kind of a cross wind. My L16 project has the 'no bounce' so I'm looking forward to a new kind of 'experience' landing. Someone also described the take off's as different too as it transcends up on the lighter springs. It would seem that with the no bounce it would be even more important to keep the upwind wing down in any appreciable cross wind on both landing and taking off.

MikeB

[Holcombe]

You get used to the "no-bounce", then you like it. On take off it is a good idea to keep the tail up and weight on the mains until ready to rotate, then do so smartly. Landings three point are easier at first, and the gear softens the final drop in nicely. With more time now I do not hesitate to do a two point from time to time, usually in very gusty conditions. Once down, hold them down.
Cross winds are all about aleron and rudder control with either gear. Don't hesitate to use all the control you have if that is what is needed. In winds any stronger than that, tell people to stay clear and land into the wind on any level surface. You only need a few hundred feet if the wind is that strong and no one is going to question your good judgement as PIC once you are safely tied down.

[vintageair]

Agree - I like the no-bounce gear now. Although it has it's quirks it also has a few features that come in handy. The first is, as I mentioned earlier, you can just come in at a 3 point attitude and not even bother to flare, the oleos are able to deal with an amazing sink rate and no complaints, which is what I believe they were initially designed for. I can see winning a lot of spot landing contests with no-bounce gear. Another feature I've discovered is on takeoff - just keep the tail down, the oleos extend at around 25 mph and now it's like you're in a Scout with a much greater AOA because of the extended gear. At about 35 mph it will just float off and you can nudge a little forward stick to gain speed. Makes for an excellent soft field takeoff technique - not recommended so much for crosswind takeoffs but otherwise works great.