Third Class Medical....again.

[Richard Murray]

The way its supposed to work, as I understand the present system, is the student goes to the two year/four year school and earns their AP license. They are not supposed to work unsupervised on any aircraft they have not had prior experience on. Presumably mentoring under an AP who has worked on the make and model of aircraft will expose the new AP to issues unique to that aircraft.

I agree with Paul that maintenance should be accomplished by a licensed mechanic who presumably knows the regulations and when to identify a non-airworthy condition.

Mike offers a solution which could grow legs given its propensity for growing a bureaucracy. The Light Sport community will certify an individual so they can legally inspect an E-LSA aircraft after attending 16 hours of training. No test, just sit through the course. Stupid? (I thought so after attending one) Perhaps a limited AP license needs to be created. The core material would involve the regulations and basic mechanics relevant to airworthiness and then a specialized course on the make and model of aircraft you want to work on. You would have an endorsement added to your license and be limited to work only on that make and model unless you completed another course for an additional endorsement for another make and model.

[rkittine]

Not sure of all the regulations and what the differences are now between the different levels, but I know two people that became licensed airframe mechanics through apprentishship only working with and under a licensed mechanic with no other formal training.

For tube and fabric aircraft I would think that this would actually be better if you were learning in a shop that specialized in that. That is why I go to Marv Lewis and his crew at Lewis Landing or Dick Bovey and his old timers at Argyle.

[Jerry Eichenberger]

The general manager of my FBO and our chief mechanic got his A&P thru the apprenticeship method. It takes 30 months, I believe, of working under an A&P to qualify to test for both Airframe and Powerplant ratings. This fellow has been a mechanic his entire life, starting in his teens. He's from England, and worked on motorcycles and cars while a kid. I've been around aviation for 45+ years, and he is one of the best mechanics I've ever known. Our shop has 4 full time mechanics, one of whom is fairly well dedicated to tube and fabric work. We always have two or more airplanes in the shop for recovering at about any given time. We work on about all piston airplanes, up thru C-421s, but we love the old airplanes the most. We get lots of referrals from the distributor of Poly Fiber products, as customers of theirs are always asking for referrals to a good fabric shop.

[MikeB]

Richard is kind of making my point. A limited course with specific models and types (like maybe Aeroncas ) and yes, there has to be some kind of test at the end. I used to teach them all the time. Even the Educational Philosophy (yawn) class I had to take to get my teaching license had several exams required before passing the course. But I'm probably beating a dead horse and it most likely won't happen until I sprout another type of wings . Right now I'd settle for the elimination of the third class medical which is where this thread started anyway but I love a good discussion.

Blue Skies

Mike

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Mike -
I see the problem with limited mechanics' licenses having a couple of problems. This first is demand. Like I said in my post about our shop, we love to work on the old airplanes, but we'd never stay in business without the Bonanzas and twins that obviously have more intense maintenance requirements, and higher revenues for the shop. You can't keep a shop running profitably doing nothing but oil changes on Champs, and annuals on Cubs. They just don't generate enough revenue.
The next issue would be enforcement of the limits on a limited A&P certificate.
The LSA repairman and inspection licenses are fairly easy to enforce - you are working on an LSA or you're not. And so far, of course, there aren't that many LSA aircraft even around. These LSA maintenance certificates don't apply to certificated airplanes like Champs that can be flown by a sport pilot - those maintenance licenses only apply to a true LSA aircraft.

[MikeB]

Jerry,
I see your point (to degree) but no one has still answered my question as to why a licensed mechanic is required for a simple aircraft like a Champ or Cub but not for 18 wheelers weighing 75000 pounds and traveling 65 mph or more or why the neighbor kid can cut his frame and jack his car/truck up and no one says anything as long as the bumpers match. The trucker can even maintain his own vehicle, replace his brakes and steering and anyone can sign off the annual (even a 18 year old kid in tennis shoes) if they've passed a short course and hold a certificate of 'training'. At least that's the way I remember it but I've been away from the trade for several years.

But like I said: I like a good discussion .

Mike

[Paul Agaliotis]

Mike,
There are special requirements for the trucks. Not for basic maintenance but for the items the DOT deem required. Cargo tanks need certification as do has-mat containers and license requirements needed to operate the equipment. So there is some relationship to the FAA requirements.
FAR Part 66 was supposed to take care of this. Breaking it down to AMT and AMT-T, the latter indicating a Transport rating. The Owners and Operators of repair stations successfully lobbied against it due to the recurrent training requirements, thought to be unmanageable. This would have included a basic "type rating" for specialized maintenance requirements. This would have propelled the AMT into the realm of "skilled" workers not unlike the commercial pilots. You may not know that all A/P's are considered "semi-skilled" and are paid at a reduced rate. Now all of the jobs have a level of responsibility that needs to be compensated for. But at my airline the level is 300% higher for the "skilled" labor. You can see now why it was important to scrap Part 66.
Everybody wants to work on their own planes. And finding a mechanic to work with is the best choice. There is just too much to know to maintain the level of safety that is needed.
See you at Middletown.
Paul
Paul

[MikeB]

Thanks Paul,
I now declare this 'cyber bull session' closed (much to ponder ). The offer for the frosty beverage stands at Middletown.

Mike