National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

I was emailed by a new member and started to reply by email. About halfway through I thought that I should both share this with everyone but more importantly, may have missed something and hope others will lend a hand.

Can everyone please look at this and add or correct what I have posted?

Thx,

Joe
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Paul,

That price is fair to a bit high, depending on a lot of things. What type of engine? 65, 75 or 85 horse continental? 85 hp is much more desireable but the others are ok.

Does it have a prop? Check to see if its legal for the engine on the plane. Last Champ I got had a descent prop that needed overhaul. Found out that it was for a Cessna C-140 and not an Aeronca and needed $800 worth of overhaul to make it legal for someone else's airplane.

How is the fuselage? Really ready to cover or could it have rusty tubing in it? Remember your old sheetmetal days? Get your automatic sheetmetal punch and start punching every inch or so on the bottom longerons, especially in the tail frame area by the rudder. Water runs down the back of the airplane and if its not allowed to go out then it collects there and rusts. Any duff tubing means welding new in and that detracts from the value. Does not mean its not good, but if it means more work for you, thats less money for the seller.

Check the main landing gear fitting areas, as well as where the wings attach. Look for bent or damaged tubing. This comes from a landing or other accident.

Wings. If they are not covered then this is a bonus. Inspect the spars for cracks and separation. There have been a few that were cracked, but most of the AD issue here is with the higher powered Citabria's that are flying upside down and acro. Look at the attach points and all the interior rigging for damage. Same with control surfaces and tail feathers.

Landing gear. Make sure that its all there, and some of all the wheels tend to crack, so worth looking there now.

Forgotten the width of the Chief inside and mine is not close enough to measure.

Lastly, check the paperwork and make sure that there is a data-tag that says its from Middletown Ohio. There are lots of planes out there with a tag saying that its from Lunken Airport. Fine if the plane is a pre-war version but after the flood Aeronca moved to Cincinatti and the data-tag needs to match. This can be worked out but its best that they match.

The old Defender is a tandem, and lots of room in the rear. One real drawback on this very nice old bird is that it only has 10-12 gallons of fuel onboard, so you are looking at a 1.5 hour plane at best. Chief has 23 gallons with the fuselage tank, far more than most bladders can hold.

If the bird is really ready to recover, and no damaged tubing that you can find, then the price is not too bad. If its got a C-85 and needs a bit of extra work, then its not too bad. If it has a few rusted tubes in it, a A-65 engine with no or the wrong prop, and a missing or incorrect data-tag, then the price is too high. For this kind of money it should be in good shape and not needing much repair other than recover and general TLC. My 2c worth...

All this old feeble brain can come up with for now. Hope others chime in! Many others have been through this and this way we can help everyone.

Take care,

Joe A

On 4 Aug 2006 at 14:53, Paul Lied wrote:

>
> Thanks Joe, got it working.
>
> If you dont mind, Could I ask you a couple of questions? Seems you are a Chief guy, A fellow at
> work has a 47 Chief, needs to be put back together and covered, supposedly everything is there
> with no damage wants $8500. Does that sound about right?
>
> What is the inside width of a Chief? (in inches) and lastly...
>
> Is a Aeronca 1940 TC-65 Defendera tandem Chief?, or is it more like a Champ? They say that
> the rear seat is 9 inches taller than the front. Is it bigger than a champ/chief?
>
> All these different models and so many questions, I hope you dont mind a couple.
>
> Paul

Joe, you covered everything pretty well but I'll throw a couple things up.

Check the elevators and rudder with the punch. If the stick was ever tied back (up elevator) for an extended time, it can rust the foward tube because of no drains. The best advise is to punch every piece of metal present.

Any logs with the engine, was it pickelled? Take a wrench to pull spark plugs, use a "Bend-A-Light" or small flash light to look at the cylinder walls. That will give you an idea of the overall condition of the engine. An overhaul should cost around $3-$4000 if thats needed.

It will be really hard, but try to get an idea whats missing. Little parts get sepperated and can run the rebuild tab up. For $8500 I would want to see all the parts in their respectable place, installed in other words. If the airplane is seperatd into 30 different milk crates, the price is too much, regardless if the owner says everthing is present.

What about all the wood pieces; formers, floor boards, etc... are they there and servicable. Could you use them for patterns? What about seat cuishions and baggage compartment? Are there any instruments?

Joe said it, but I'll repeat it. Check the main gear attach points for damage and take a look at the spars. If the wood is in question, now would be a good time to replace them.

For $8500, the project needs to complete and ready to cover. Figure it will cost around $10,000-$12,000 to do all the fit and finish of the airplane if you were farming it out. That would give you $18-$20,000 invested which is about right.

Thats my 2 pennies, complete with spellin mistakes.

nkh

Nathan,

Thanks. Paul is an A&P so that helps with the knowledge and costs but its still a lot of time if there is a lot of work to be done.

Joe

it's alwasy cheaper to buy one someone else has rebuilt than to do it yourself, unless you want the "hobby". in my experience( limited) you will always have more invested( not counting labor) than you can sell it for. food for thought.

Years of experience wil tell you it is usually cheaper to buy an airplane that someone has put all the work into and go fly right now. But if you want a project, always buy one that is complete, prefferably one that you can atleast get a ferry permit for. I've done it both ways. Telling the wife it will be done in 6 months usually will result in some of her projects being done with airplane money during the 6 months that will usually extend into about 4 or 5 years years. I had one that lasted for 8 years and over 6000 hours of labor (hired out that would come to over $300,000 at $50 an hour and then add materials). And don't tell her or yourself when your project is finished you can make money on it--because it usually isn't true. After all you expect to fly it and put some wear and tear on it--right??

Doug

There is another solution to paying $8,500 for that Chief. I've got my 11AC project on Barnstormers for under eight grand. Or you could buy my flying 11AC, also on Barnstormers. Both are located nearby Cleveland, OH.