Dihedral and Struts

[gusc]

Today I finally got arount to checking out my right wing droop which I thought was caused by the low right main gear strut.

Well, it is not the LG. I leveled the fuselage with a block under the R/tire and the R wing is a good 10" lower at the tip than the left!!

I checked the dihedral, the left is 3.5* and the right is 1*. No wonder the rudder tab is bent 45*.

Needless to say this has me a bit upset. I don't think the guy who rebuilt this airplane had any measuring tools.

I also found that the tailwheel spring tail post fitting has a 5* slant to the left!! At least I can straighten this with a beveled shim.

My question is; can I get a shorter wing strut for the left wing to get things better in order? I thought maybe he had used struts from different airplanes but don't know if they are all the same or not. I would presume that Citabrias or Decathlons have less dihedral and thus shorter struts??

I paid too much for this airplane.

[Paul Agaliotis]

Gus,
The Citabria strut is the same length and the Decathlon is a different design. The builder may have installed a Chief strut, they are longer than Champ struts. Perhaps the struts were repaired to the wrong dimension.
Paul

[joea]

Gus,

Are the actual struts the same length? Start there.

Joe

[Jon B.]

Gus said:

"I paid too much for this airplane."

Of course you did. We *all* did! I bought a basket-case for [mumble-mumble] thousand dollars. It was worth about three or four thousand. Maybe.

Now that I've got about 140 hours on it and have been flying it for 14 months - today, in fact - the initial cost bothers me a lot less. I'm simply enjoying it. You will, too, eventually. The pain will pass as the pleasure compounds.

Really. Honest. I wouldn't s**t you about this.

Jon B.

[Mikek]

Today I finally got arount to checking out my right wing droop which I thought was caused by the low right main gear strut.

Well, it is not the LG. I leveled the fuselage with a block under the R/tire and the R wing is a good 10" lower at the tip than the left!!

I checked the dihedral, the left is 3.5* and the right is 1*. No wonder the rudder tab is bent 45*.

Needless to say this has me a bit upset. I don't think the guy who rebuilt this airplane had any measuring tools.

I also found that the tailwheel spring tail post fitting has a 5* slant to the left!! At least I can straighten this with a beveled shim.

My question is; can I get a shorter wing strut for the left wing to get things better in order? I thought maybe he had used struts from different airplanes but don't know if they are all the same or not. I would presume that Citabrias or Decathlons have less dihedral and thus shorter struts??

I paid too much for this airplane.

Guse,

First, you need to step back and count to 10 well based on what you are saying try 55 then just document what you have.

1. Measure the Struts from bolt to bolt. Front & Rear.
2. Measure the landing gear, make sketch left / right dim from bolt to bolt
Leg, Oleo Ass'y.
3. Level Aircraft using cabin wood floor or side window sill for front to
back.
4. Use precision level or angle finder and record readings at first wing bay
at cabin then bay at wing strut attachment point. [For ref only at last
full bay].
5. Check tire size and pressure should be the same left/right [Ha,Ha]
6. Step back 30-50 ft if you can and just take a look at her setting in level
flight.
7. Report back your findings and your fix to this problem.

Mikek

Note: Check it all before you point blame.


Tailwheel mounting pad can wait, one big problem at a time

Take this data

Mikek

[gusc]

Mikek,

1. Did that, both the same fronts the same, didn't check rear.

2. Did that when I got the airplane.

3. Did this for side to side, don't see the point for front to back although I have it almost level anyway. Floorboards are not much use since they are two piece and not even. I tried the cross tubes under the panel and at the baggage front. The panel cross tube has been spliced to two different size tubes and the two sides aren't the same angle. Is the rear floorboard one piece before I tear out the carpet? I don't see how two separate floorboards can ever be a good place to measure.

The horizontal stabilizers are both straight and the same. Hurrah!!

4. Did that and decreased the angle of incidence of the right wing 1* since it wants to turn left all the time. The inner and outer ribs of the left wing are the same. If the right wing adjustment doesn't help I'll increase the left incidence 1*.

5. Ha-ha is right, it doesn't matter what the gear and tires do as long al the fuselage is level!!

6. Can't do that, she is inside on blocks with the tail jacked up. Actually she looks pretty good now, wings appear to be almost the same after jacking the wing to adjust the incidence so maybe I didn't measure it accurately yesterday.

7. See above.

Joe and Paul,

Thanks. See above.

Jon,

Of course you're right, I was slightly perturbed yesterday but things are not as bad today!! It is still a beautiful little airplane. I had the same resullts with every airplane I ever bought and probably the guys who got them after me said the same things.

I got my first Champ at a bargain and the Navion at a good price. I paid too much for the Stinson and this Champ so I guess I'm about even.

The best part is I have fellow Champ nuts to share these things with and obviously a bunch of you have already been there.

[Ron Babos]

gusc: Four years ago I bought a Champ out of impulse. Sold a plane that I had built and needed a replacement. I had seen the plane before and thought about buying it but the engine was a real leaker, so I kept looking. Discovered a J3 for sale with a Franklin.

When I went to look at it he couldn't get it going. After propping forever it started but was missing on one cylinder due to a valve. Went home and thought about it and for the money difference I could rebuild the engine in the Champ that I looked at. Well I paid the guy(too much) and had him fly it up as I had no time in one before.

I looked at the plane pretty good before, but for some reason when looking at it in the hanger after the sale was done, it seemed like a piece of crap. I remember saying to myself " man, what have you done?" The more I looked at it the worse it got. Door hinges needed to be rebuilt, sticks were full of vise grip marks at the casting, the instrument panel got more ugly the longer I looked at it. Elevators were not level, seat belt anchors were mikey-mouse.

One tire had a slit in it near the rim. Looking at the wings and later confirming it with a level, both tips had more incidence than the roots. The carb heat pipe on the exhaust shroud was read to fall off and the shaft in the box had about 1/4'' play. The baffling was junk also.

Now for the good news. All of this has been fixed, and I have a new engine to boot.I've actually run out of things to fix on it and just fly it as much as I can. I have no regrets on passing on that over priced Cub.

Each thing you fix, the closer you get to being happy

Ron

[gusc]

OK Ron, you got me on this one!

I haven't found this many problems but I haven't looked closely but in about three areas.

It has new cover and paint, correct colors, interior is very nice, runs like a top, has four O/H cylinders, I fixed the carb box and filter, will soon have the pneumatic Maule TW completely repaired, the prop is almost new, I have the correct tires and tubes on the way and the windshield is new. That doesn't sound so bad.

I also ordered a new TW spring because this one sags too much, another reason the TW hit the rudder. All these old springs sag after all those years and it causes shimmy and hard steeering. I had the same problem with my Stinson but didn't know what was wrong for a long time. Live and learn.

I have a huge order coming from AirSpruce and my morale is much better today. Just had to make an attitude adjustment.

One thing you have to be thankful for is that you didn't get that Franklin engine. I love Franklin engines, they are among the best made and easiest to overhaul, but this little 65HP Franklin happens to have the case and cylinders cast into one piece. Imagine trying to do a top on that one!! As far as I know it is the only engine ever made this way.

[Ron Babos]

gusc: Oh, did I mention he had a spare sitting on the stand with the deal. I agree they seem to be well made. I like those helical gears instead of those straight rattling spurs on the Continentals, but I don't think that Franklins actually produce the rated power claimed, and in the case of the 65 hp, wood props was all that could be used. As far as I know it has not been sold to this date.
Ron

[Nathan K. Hammond]

I'm a Franklin Lover! Pops owns a J-3 with a Franklin on it, and were O/H'ing it right now. We alway's figured our 65 was making about 60 at full power, but man was it a smooooooooth, and quiet engine.

nkh

Ron, how much for the project?

[MikeB]

I think we can all relate to "buyer's remorse" at one time or another. The more I look at my L16 project , the more I find wrong (stuff I didn't see or looked past at the initial inspection). So far: one cracked spar, needs new longerons welded in (they were previously welded, probably legal, but looked like ****), several ribs will most likely need to be replaced or at least repaired, for some odd reason, it appears a previous owner has placed old (Ford) speedometer gears as spacers on the no bounce gears (there has to be a message there someplace). I could go on and on with little stuff and, yes, I probably paid too much for it "but it's a L-16, which I always wanted". On the other hand, it came with lots of new stuff, new tires and tubes, engine baffle kit, strobe lights (which I'll probably sell), the green house pieces all appear to be there, and I bought it for a project anyway (wife says, if it keeps me happy in the shop it's worth it).

Besides, I tripled my money on the 140 Cherokee when I sold it so it after 25 years, so it probably all works out in the end.

Fix it up the way you want and enjoy it, Gus.

Mike

[Ron Babos]

Ron, how much for the project?

Nathan: You're just one more person I have to say.... not for sale. We're best buds now.
Ron

ps If you're asking about the 1939 J3F, he was asking 35k four years ago and I think he still has it.

[gusc]

Nathan,

Does the Franklin run at high rpm? The Franklin 165 on my Stinson cruised at 2550 and was redlined at 2800. Some guys ran them full throttle all the time and it didn't seem to bother them.

[Nathan K. Hammond]

Gus,

The little 65's red line around 2250-2300, and while it was happy to run at full throttle, we usually pulled it back to 2150+/-. That engine gave 1100 hours and 30 years of trouble free service; which is really saying something considering it has a TBO of 600 hrs!! My dad had a Stinson 108 when we were little kids, and he still laments how nice a plane it was. He never ran it wide open at 2800rpm, but would push it up to 2600-2700rpm if going somewhere. When simply loaffing around, 1900 was just fine and only sipped the gas. I always felt Franklins got an unfair shake and reputation.

There use to be a 65 Lyc. powered cub, aswell as a Continental powered one. We use to get all 3 line a breast in a slow cruise, then go full throttle. Talk about raw horse power! The Cont. powered would pull out front everytime, but the Franklin could hold within a couple plane lengths. The poor little Lyc. would be left behind by about 10 lengths within 1-2 minutes.

Ron,
Yeah I was asking about the Cub, but 35K for a Project!?!?!?!?! YIKES! What's he smoking?

nkh

[Ron Babos]

Nathan: It was a complete flying aircraft, so I guess the price was somewhat typical of what Cubs are going for.
Ron