Insurance Woes

[mark]

I'm finally in a position to make an a/c purchase so I was looking at an Aeronca Sedan...thought I'd make a call on insurance and this is what I found...in a nutshell, it will cost me more to insure/month than the payment on the a/c itself!!! My specifics are as follows:
SEL, SES, 150 Total Time, 30 Tailwheel, 12 Floats, no violations...
The insurance I was quoted was as follows:
Insured Value 50k, Hangered, Not in motion $100 deduct., in motion $1,000 ded., 1 million combined single limit each occurance, pass. liability $100,000, medical payments 3k/passenger.

Premium was $2,700.00 !!! and that was WITHOUT the floats!!! I realize I am low time but how can one afford to own an a/c at this rate??? I'm not interested in obtaining an instrument rating...I know 2 seats are less expensive than 4 to insure, but I've seen other 4 seat vintage planes insured for around $1,200 with pilots with my same total time (family member)...I'm about to throw in the towel and become just another pilot lost to the increased cost of flying...any ideas would be appreciated.
PS- the above quote was from our friends (???) @ FALCON Insurance...(SPA Member).

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Mark -

I'm not an aviation insurance agent, although I'm married to one. I do practice law in this area, so I've got a little insight.

Your quote was high (but not all that high) for the following reasons:

1. Yes, you are VERY LOW TIME, not just low time. Your total time, and very meager tailwheel experience will make it expensive for you to insure anything for a while other than a plain vanilla airplane like a 172 or Cherokee.

2. You have chosen an airplane that is fairly rare. Most insurance claims involve damage to the airplane, not the horrific injuries and deaths that make the press. When you break the airplane, the insurance company has to fix it. When you deal with a rare airplane, two things happen - first, parts are hard to find, and it makes the whole process of adjusting the claim much more drawn out and expensive for the insurer; and, all too often, the plane will be totalled because the needed parts can't be found. The same damage that can cause a Sedan to be totalled might be easily repairable on a Cessna 172.

Sorry, but those are the facts that we all have to deal with.

[Guest]

Thanks for the feedback...but how does that explain my family members' $1200 insurance on a C170 with the same total time??? What a SCAM !!!

[Guest]

I can't comment directly without seeing the exact quotes being compared. No two quotes are ever exactly alike. Do you know which companies issued these quotes? I mean insurance company, not the agent.

However, I can tell you that a Cessna 170, especially a B model, will cost far less to insure than a Sedan. I once owned one.

Parts for the 170 abound everywhere - Sedan parts don't.

Also, underwriters' familiarity with a given airplane is important. Aviation underwriting is as much an art as anything else - if the underwriter doesn't know the plane and if he isn't comfortable with you in it, that will be reflected in the quote. I'd bet than many, maybe most, underwriters have never heard of a Sedan.

Again, the difference is mostly reflected in the airplane that you've chosen.

[Guest]

Good points all...perhaps , then, I should be looking for a different model rather than Aeroncas...perhaps w/2 seats...C-120/140 for instance.

[bwmatz]

Nothing wrong with Aeroncas, just pick a model that is more common and less expensive. Plenty of very nice Champs and Chiefs out there to build your total and tailwheel time in...then you can move up to a Sedan later.

[Nathan K. Hammond]

Something to think about. Many Sedans have headed north to Alaska.....you know the song...."North, to Alaska"... sorry. See if you can get ahold of an Insurrer up there. They might have a little better feel for the 15 and in return, might give you a quote thats a little lighter on the wallet. Now he may say....only 12 HOURS?!?! and jack up the price. But if you get a good quote, thats leverage with Falcon, or ______.

One other thing. That first year, it might be $2000 a month. Next year, as long as you don't ding something, call them up and say "look it was this much money when I had this little time. Now I've got 300 more hours with no claims, so lets lower that premimum." The scale works both directions. I had a friend that bought a Lake Anphib. Insurrance was sky high at first, but every year he would call with new Total Times, and they would lower the rate.

I would hate to see you give up buying a really cool airplane, only because of an Ass with the insurrance company! (present company excluded)

nkh

[MikeB]

Just a couple of thoughts here, but it does make more sense to go with either a Champ or Chief (or some other brand ) if you intend to build some tail wheel time. Of course, a lot depends on what you intend to use the plane for. In addition to my Champ, I have a Cherokee 140 that I've owned for nearly 25 years. I don't believe I've ever hauled four people in it, partly because it really isn't a four place plane, but secondly, I really never have a need to haul four people. In fact, most of my flying is pretty much "airport hopping" and the Champ works almost best for that
(more fun, too). I think I put about 14 hours on the Cherokee last year and around 60 on the Champ.

One other thought: I insure both planes for about $650 per year with liability only, but that depends on whether you can stand the loss should it occur.

[Mark]

Thanks again for the responses to my whine...do most insurance co's "give you a break at certain time intervals...say 100 hrs., 200 hrs., etc.??? Just curious as to how much time it takes to get a break...thanks again for all the great responses.

[shorty]

I too have been hit with the "insurance woes" ! I can't understand how I can be insured to fly ANY airplane under 300 hp. that seats six people or fewer, for less than $600 per year.(as long as I don't own it) But for the same coverage on a 182 that I own is $ 2700 per year. So It's cheaper for me to insure my buddy's Mooney M20C, ($600/year) and fly it, than to insure my own! Why is that??

[Nathan K. Hammond]

That’s kind of a loaded question Mark. But to answer your question, yes. It will depend mostly on the person/company you're working with, but I would think 100 hrs. would help to bring it down. If there is any common sense, they would know these first couple hundred are the important one's, and where you are most likely to have an incident.

nkh

[pablo]

Mark:
Try Antique Aircraft Association (AAA). For about $35 you become a member, entitled then to insure at much better your "classic" or "antique" airplane (my 46 Champ qualifies). If interested call me at my office for the tel. #s at 405 682 4000 where I have the needed information.
Pablo

[Mark]

Thanks again guys/gals...you've all helped me understand better the whole aircraft ownership/insurance picture...I will follow through with all your suggestions and report back at a later time...again, thank you.

PS-By the way...I have narrowed down my search to a Champ 7ec (preferred...but can't seem to find a good one for sale), PA12 (earned my float rating in one and was impressed with it), early SuperCub, or C170B (although I would prefer not to own a 4 seater @ this time).

[MikeB]

Nothing wrong with a good Citabria (other than the reoccuring AD on the wooden wing spars). Good luck on your search!!
Mike

[Guest]

I'm not an aviation insurance agent, although I'm married to one. I do practice law in this area, so I've got a little insight......

Would you mind informing me what the legal requirments are for insuring an aircraft in class G airspace in California? (What is required by law). I am a student pilot with 15 hours in a Cessna 150 and am interested in the cost of ownership.