I've now looked at several Champs with C-85-12 engines and all have undocumented conversions. Are there any legal 7DC's -, 7CCM's or conversions, legally converted to -12 engines with starter and battery ?
There are a number of informally converted Champs but are there any legal ones ? I'm not even asking if they're for sale. Just curious.
Have been looking for such an airplane (and gross weight under 1320# for LSA) for 9 months and so far have expended time and money fruitlessly.
Am almost ready to give up and just buy a decent stock 7AC.
Rudy
Are there any legal Champs with electric starters ?
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rudymantel
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 09:01
- Location: Hollywood North Perry (FL) HWO
- Contact:
Rudy,
Gregg Horrell on this list has one for sale, but its a 7FC, the one with the nosewheel. He did the B&C starter installation on the plane himself before he went to work for the FAA in Juneau Alaska. Its now sitting in Prescott Arizona at Nostalgiaire FBO and for sale.
If you contacted Scott Gifford, the owner, sure he would be glad to give you a copy of the 337 paperwork if he has it, or get the "N" number and you can order the paperwork.
Now, as for an airplane if you cannot find a nice one with a starter, then find one with a run out A65 on it and buy a C85-12/C90/O-200, overhaul it if needed and swap engines and bolt a starter on it!
You can then sell the A65 and get some of your money back and end up with the airplane you want.
Gregg Horrell on this list has one for sale, but its a 7FC, the one with the nosewheel. He did the B&C starter installation on the plane himself before he went to work for the FAA in Juneau Alaska. Its now sitting in Prescott Arizona at Nostalgiaire FBO and for sale.
If you contacted Scott Gifford, the owner, sure he would be glad to give you a copy of the 337 paperwork if he has it, or get the "N" number and you can order the paperwork.
Now, as for an airplane if you cannot find a nice one with a starter, then find one with a run out A65 on it and buy a C85-12/C90/O-200, overhaul it if needed and swap engines and bolt a starter on it!
You can then sell the A65 and get some of your money back and end up with the airplane you want.
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rudymantel
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 09:01
- Location: Hollywood North Perry (FL) HWO
- Contact:
Conversion to the C85 is a breeze, its a factory Aeronca mod to the airplane. There is no STC for it as the factory did the homework here. Believe that its the 7BCM.
I am not a Champ expert but believe that this was approved for the -8 engine and what you would need is for your IA to talk to the Feds and see if they would buy off on a -12 engine, which is the same engine but with the option for a starter and generator on the accy housing.
Gregg Horrell ryanaero@gci.net
I am not a Champ expert but believe that this was approved for the -8 engine and what you would need is for your IA to talk to the Feds and see if they would buy off on a -12 engine, which is the same engine but with the option for a starter and generator on the accy housing.
Gregg Horrell ryanaero@gci.net
Legal? You bet!
Rudy,
I sent you a couple of emails but I guess you didn't get them. I installed a C85-12 in a 7AC under the Lasher STC. I then installed a Skytec lightweight starter and a battery (use a trickle charger) and received a field approval from the Detroit FSDO.
My approach is not the only one that can be used..... I have some info I can send you if you are interested.
Tim Juhl
I sent you a couple of emails but I guess you didn't get them. I installed a C85-12 in a 7AC under the Lasher STC. I then installed a Skytec lightweight starter and a battery (use a trickle charger) and received a field approval from the Detroit FSDO.
My approach is not the only one that can be used..... I have some info I can send you if you are interested.
Tim Juhl
The BCM...
The BCM I'm heading out to pick up was, according to the owner, converted to a C-85-12 by a 337. What is wrong with that? This Champ has a starter, battery, and generator.
There must be a lot more like it... I mean with a -12 engine, starter, battery, and generator???
Mike
There must be a lot more like it... I mean with a -12 engine, starter, battery, and generator???
Mike
Champ with Starter
Mike,
There is nothing wrong with the conversion except that it would require either a STC or a field approval..... either way the FAA has to give it's blessings, not just the A & P. Check to see if the FSDO signed off on the 337. Neither the 7BCM or 7DC are approved for a C85-12 engine (ref. type certificate A-759.) I installed a C85-12 in my Champ under the Lasher STC and the starter / battery under a field approval. The Detroit FSDO had to review my paperwork and then send a inspector out to my airport to physically examine the installation.
There are a lot of champs flying with improperly documented modifications. In many cases the A & P /IA signing the annuals is not sufficiently familiar with the type to know what is or is not approved. In most instances these Champs have gotten by for decades and in fact are unlikely to be discovered unless something happens. For example, aircraft data plates seem to disappear with the result that many champs I've seen are flying around with Wag Aero knockoffs that are copies of the data plate for pre-WWII aircraft. If it says Lunken Airport instead of Middletown you've got a knockoff. A knowledgable inspector might know the difference.
I would say that the majority of Champ owners have had to deal with something from their aircraft's past that wasn't kosher, I know I did. You just need go into such a project with your eyes open.
Tim
There is nothing wrong with the conversion except that it would require either a STC or a field approval..... either way the FAA has to give it's blessings, not just the A & P. Check to see if the FSDO signed off on the 337. Neither the 7BCM or 7DC are approved for a C85-12 engine (ref. type certificate A-759.) I installed a C85-12 in my Champ under the Lasher STC and the starter / battery under a field approval. The Detroit FSDO had to review my paperwork and then send a inspector out to my airport to physically examine the installation.
There are a lot of champs flying with improperly documented modifications. In many cases the A & P /IA signing the annuals is not sufficiently familiar with the type to know what is or is not approved. In most instances these Champs have gotten by for decades and in fact are unlikely to be discovered unless something happens. For example, aircraft data plates seem to disappear with the result that many champs I've seen are flying around with Wag Aero knockoffs that are copies of the data plate for pre-WWII aircraft. If it says Lunken Airport instead of Middletown you've got a knockoff. A knowledgable inspector might know the difference.
I would say that the majority of Champ owners have had to deal with something from their aircraft's past that wasn't kosher, I know I did. You just need go into such a project with your eyes open.
Tim
Much of what Tim says is spot on.
If you have a post-war Aeronca with a data-plate that says "Lunken Airport" on it then the data-tag is not the correct one for the plane. The Lunken Airport data-tags are legal only on the pre-war airplanes but most people do not realize this and just bolt them on. Believe that Champ owners can get a new correct one from ACA, not sure about Chief owners.
My Chief has a C85-12 that was installed on the plane in the 1950's with a field approval, the 337 mentioned above. Have had a couple of FAA types question its legality but it was approved by the FAA in charge when installed so its difficult to fault at this time.
If you have a post-war Aeronca with a data-plate that says "Lunken Airport" on it then the data-tag is not the correct one for the plane. The Lunken Airport data-tags are legal only on the pre-war airplanes but most people do not realize this and just bolt them on. Believe that Champ owners can get a new correct one from ACA, not sure about Chief owners.
My Chief has a C85-12 that was installed on the plane in the 1950's with a field approval, the 337 mentioned above. Have had a couple of FAA types question its legality but it was approved by the FAA in charge when installed so its difficult to fault at this time.