Aileron roll???

lancef53 · Post by **lancef53** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 16:01

Please don't jump on me, I have no intention of trying it!!!!

That said, is it possible to roll a champ? I saw on the maule site a fellow doing it with his M5, and was wondering about it. I am sure it has been done, but was curious if it was a common thing.

After riding with for a few spins with my instructor, it seems like a roll would be pretty tame in comparison.

Post by **joea** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 20:54

Glad you did not put a Chief or Sedan in there, as I might get in trouble!

Years ago when I was young and "indestructable" I did maneuvers like this in my 1946 Chief, which was an airplane that I knew every square inch of after restoring it.

Would I do it with my current airplane? No way for several reasons. Part of it is being"older and wiser," and part that I did not restore or recover this airplane. I feel both comfortable and safe in the airplane but without knowing everything that is inside the wings and fuselage there is simply no way that I would do any acro in a 70 year old airplane.

If I want to go upside down will rent an airplane designed to do this and have fun AFTER spending some time with a instructor who can freshen up my skills. I fly an airplane for a living but am smart enough to know that doing something like this could turn out bad if not done correctly, so getting some instruction from someone who is current is a must for me.

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 21:07

Back in my more youthful days, I would barrel roll my 7DC Champ. I really don't think a true aileron roll would be very easy to do in a Champ however. Everything would be much too sluggish to get it around before it fell through. Just speculation however. With all these planes and me being much older now, I agree with Joe and I don't even spin my Chief. roger

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 22:41

Very similar to a Stearman, it takes a long time for it to go around. And be sure to have the nose high enough when you start.

Suprisingly, you can get into more trouble trying to roll, rather than loop. It's easy to let the speed get out of hand and over stress the airframe if done wrong.

nkh

I'd like to hear what David Johnson has to say!

marklamon · Post by **marklamon** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 23:37

Nathan K. Hammond wrote:Very similar to a Stearman, it takes a long time for it to go around. And be sure to have the nose high enough when you start.

Suprisingly, you can get into more trouble trying to roll, rather than loop. It's easy to let the speed get out of hand and over stress the airframe if done wrong.

nkh

I'd like to hear what David Johnson has to say!

What kind of trouble can you get into doing a roll? Describe things going wrong

Is it hard on the glue joints in the spars? I've rolled a Stearman, Super Decathlon, Citabria, RV-8 , A-4, and a Yak-55 but the thought of rolling the Champ make the hair on the back of my neck tingle, I don't know if it is a warning sign or excitement

jimboe · Post by **jimboe** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 23:52

Have I rolled my Champ? Not yet, but I nearly rolled a forklift when I was a young fool. That was 30 years ago and I've matured a great deal since then - now I'm an old fool. How else could I justify the cost of an airplane with almost no utilitarian value? "Honey, I'm going to fly over to Klamath Falls and pick up a loaf of bread. No, I'm sorry, a box of detergent will put me over gross."

I flew as my dad's passenger starting at 6 months-old (in a Champ) and many other airplanes since, but it wasn't until a friend took me for a ride in a Citabia that I realized the real purpose of flying airplanes - hammer-head stalls. I'd discovered a drug that made cocaine look like a bargain.

Now, at my age and financial status I've taken the Sport Pilot route so a Citabria is out of reach, but I'm lucky enough to fly its daddy, and a healthy one at that - a 7DC.

Since we're on the subject of unusually fun attitudes and manuevers, I wanted to ask all of you what your favorites are that are Champ friendly and old-fool-proof.

Thanks,
Jimbo

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 00:55

marklamon wrote:Describe things going wrong

I need more to drink before I can tell that tale.

It still gives me the shivers.

Jim, a simple 1-2 turn spin is a blast. If done correctly it's a 1G move. Loops are also fairly easy on the airframe and don't take more than a 1.5G pull. You'll pull more in a 60' degree turn. But, here comes the usual responce; get some instruction. I've played in lots of acro machines, but I don't try anything in a Champ unless I'm absolutely certain I know whats gonna happen, or I'm shown by someone with more experience. Up until this summer, I had never looped a Champ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfpksWJJPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJu2miLLlMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDWuQ3cgxrA

Listen, hear how much it speeds up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO0OKbGJjQM

nkh

David Johnson · Post by **David Johnson** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 07:14

Very interesting post....Forgive me if I ramble.....First, no acro other than gentle wingovers unless I absolutely know the COMPLETE airframe. Done correctly you are not overloading the plane. But how many things in life go correctly...Ask Nate, a few months ago we(I) bailed out of a barrell roll early. Was slow enough at the top it wasn't a big deal.

Been playing with these things since I was 22 and I still ain't worth a flip at rolling moves with a Champ. Nate is right, looping is the best thing a Champ does. I do think I pull between 2 and 2.5 g. Egg shaped ones less. A roll needs a ballistic flight path to be easy on the bird. Nose up 30 to 45 degrees. It takes LOTS of forward stick to avoid the nose tucking way under. Real Bad. The guys that taught me said to start at 100-110mph.

The natural instinct when upside down is to slow or stop the roll and pull the stick in your gut. Even when you know this, it is the natural reaction. This is BAD. Lots of speed and energy.

In my younger days(Dumber Days), I have tucked a roll so bad I came out vertically real fast. Did not get to use those underwear again! Streaked and bunched up! I would like to see you with someone who really knows Champs, CFI or not. What is important is staying safe. We want you around having a good time for a long time.

We rebuild our planes from the ground up, bare fuselage, new spars, etc. Lots of work but worth it. I am starting to believe original wings with small nails/0.020 ribs will show more damage/loosening from high speed rolling moves than anything. I don't think coordinated looping moves are going to hurt the airframes at all. At low G loading. Don't be afraid to come over the top of a wingover or loop real slow. If you get rid of the energy going up, you have more of a cushion to play with. Practice wingovers up to 90 degrees(bank), use a little top rudder floating over the top and learn what it feels like. Then carry the wingovers to 10-20 degrees over vertical and see what it does to the recovery. You can get real acute in a hurry. Go slow and feel your way along.

I would reccomend extensive spin/stall practice. All types of entry's and recovery. First solo, then with a passenger. Watch rear CG loading, check your numbers. Power on stalls, all the way. Have you ever done a power on stall, the left wing go down, you add a little right stick, and the airplane enter a spin to the left? The down aileron stalls the low wing....Primary Spin/Yaw recovery is with the rudder. Not needed with spam cans, but a lot of folks are not taught that up front with old airplanes.Champs are not bad at all to spin out, but it do happen. Find the most experienced Champ driver in your area and pick his brain, or go fly with him. Sorry for the long post.

Have a BLAST.

David J.

p.s. ask Nathan what the call sign Champ 86C Heavy means...

marklamon · Post by **marklamon** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:48

Nathan K. Hammond wrote:
Listen, hear how much it speeds up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO0OKbGJjQM

nkh

I notice that there was no 20 to 30deg pitch up before the roll. If he would have pitched up during the entry do think he would have avoided the speed increase? Mark

jimboe · Post by **jimboe** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:11

Thanks for the great videos, Nathan. I appreciate your willingness to do the R&D. Seeing helps understanding.

After reading David Johnson's post about the pitfalls of rolls I'm inclined to skip them. It seems like doing them in a 60-year-old airplane is like kayaking an "easy class 5" rapid - it's not all that difficult, but if you screw up you'll get your ass beat.

Having had my ass beaten more than a few times in my boat, I'm determined not to let it happen in my Champ, ever. My strategy is to find out what things I can do that are fun and fairly forgiving (when I make mistakes).

I have an excellent CFI with a Citabria and will spend time with him before I start experimenting.

Jimbo

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 13:24

If I were teaching someone acro in their Champ, a roll would be last on the ciriculum.

David Johnson wrote: I would reccomend extensive spin/stall practice. All types of entry's and recovery. First solo, then with a passenger. Watch rear CG loading.

All of David's advise is dead on! But this one really struck home: the only time I've ever inadvertanly spun an airplane was doing wingovers in the Champ. Had about 3 gallons, rear seat passenger, (rear CG) a little over zelous going over the top and cross controlled. Before I knew it, we were 1 turn complete and starting the second.

marklamon wrote:I notice that there was no 20 to 30deg pitch up before the roll. If he would have pitched up during the entry do think he would have avoided the speed increase? Mark

I hate too knit pick the guy, but yeah.

nkh

Jody Wittmeyer · Post by **Jody Wittmeyer** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 15:54

Agree with all that's said. know my champ and it doesn't stay right side up too often. IT loops alot and that is the ardest thing on it. Mine takes 2.5 (G-meter) to get it over the top. Aileron rolls aren't done much anymore. nose up 30-40 degrees to start, stick all the way to the side and at @ 130 degrees, start pushing the stick forward, full forward at inverted, then start coming back on it so it is way back when the wings are level again, finishing with the nose @ 30-40 degrees low. The champ is very slow to go around! It has stopped rolling while inverted, the nose coming down, speed increasing quickly. It takes so much forward stick (inverted) to hold the nose up, that it actually unloads the wings, going to neutral, even - G.
Now, if you use too much rudder in the roll, the champ will snap roll. What a hoot. Those are the only rolls I do now! Cruise throttle, pull the nose up 40 deg. while moving stick and rudder full right. It stalls and snaps at @ 70 degrees of roll. everything neutral and stick full forward @ 340 deg. of roll and it's all good again. No more than 1 G and it only takes a second and a half from start to finish.
The Aeronca test pilot I flew got a hoot from it. They did snap rolls like that all the time in 1946.
Again, I know my wings and airplane. Don't try this at home. Next year at Middletown, I would show anybody what it looks like. Interested Nate.

David Johnson · Post by **David Johnson** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 19:05

Nate, how were you flying the wingover gone wrong? Did you have a little pull on the bird over the top? Top or bottom rudder? Going over the top is usually zero g for me. You got my interest up. Good discussion. Don't anyone think I am not encouraging them to learn this stuff. If an old hardhead like me can get there anyone can. This is FUN! Small steps. Citabria's are fun as well. Good machine. But as time goes by, I think I still like the light, playfull feel of a 7AC. With more than 65hp too. Us full figured guys need help...Jody, we have got to meet at Middletown. I know we have walked all around each other but never been aquainted. I greatly enjoyed the video clip a while back with the reporter. Awesome. David J.

gusc · Post by **gusc** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 20:08

There is no stress on an airplane in a normal spin except if you are sloppy in the recovery and pull out too hard. With plenty of altitude and a gradual, power off recovery G's are negligible.

The airplane is stalled during a normal spin with no airspeed and with no stress if in a true spin. The occupants may be stressed though!

If the airplane is stressed you are in a spiral, not a spin. If you release back pressure without stopping the rotation you will quickly be in a spiral.

The interesting thing about a Champ stall to me is that the elevator quits flying before the wing stalls. That is the reason the nose drops straight down if you keep the wings level. I have only flown A65/A75 Champs so this may not apply to other models but I would think it is probably worse with larger engines.

I've never experienced this nose dropping straight down in any other aircraft except gliders?? Never really gave a lot of thought as to the reason they do this?

marklamon · Post by **marklamon** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 20:24

I think we might be going somewhere here guys, how about a sub-thread in post war Champ's describing the correct way to wing overs, stall turns, hammer heads, dutch rolls, ect. I think it would be great to come up with entry and exit speeds even for the more simple manuvers for those of us that are new to Champs. Hearing what can/has gone wrong does help. What do you guys think?

National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

Aileron roll???

Have you rolled a champ??

Aileron roll???