Turn and Bank Indicator

stknrdr · Post by **stknrdr** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 15:32

I did use the search engine first, honest.

Here's the question:

My LSA Champ (A-75-8F)is no-gyro day VFR only. I do have a turbo alternator and Gill battery under the front seat for the Garmin SL40 and King xpnder.

The Wife is working on her Private License. I would like to have her do it all (except the night dual) in the Champ. I have found an examiner who is willing to do her checkride in the Champ if I have a turn and bank indicator installed.

So would you recommend an electric (they draw about 1 amp) turn and bank or a vacuum (Venturi) operated one? Spruce has a rebuilt T&B w/ Venturi and lines kit for $489 and rebuilt electric ones run about the same.

Or is this a bad idea and I should just have her transition to a C-152? I figure for about twice what the C-152 rental hours would cost, I could have a little extra safety factor should (God forbid) the WX ever be contrary to the briefing.

Because of the paint job, my Champ is in the "custom" category already, so I'm not really worried about the "classic" look, although I'm opting for the old fashioned "needle/ball" rather than the little airplane "turn coordinator".

Thanks,

Tim

Post by **joea** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 17:04

Tim,

My Chief has a vacuum T&B installed and frankly its about worthless except for the ball in the tube in the bottom which shows slip info, which happens far too often with me (jet pilot in a taildragger!) when I fly.

The weight and hassle of wiring it all up would not be that big of a deal, so if the examiner wants one I would look into it.

You are the third guy I know of who is getting his Wife involved in flying with an Aeronca! Keep up the good work!

Joe

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 21:35

Hi Tim I have a vacuum turn and bank in my Champ, it works good, I just have the small venturi which means that the gyro doesn't really come up to speed until your flying, generally its working on climb out. Where as an electric turn is operation about as quick as the master is turned on.
As long as you have an examiner that will do the check ride in the Champ I'd go for it.

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 08:51

Hi Tim. I have a vacuum turn and bank in my Chief. It works great. Of course, it only comes up to speed after you are flying for a few moments. I got it off Ebay for about $20. My dad, who was a WW2 instrument repairman, cleaned it up, repainted the needle, etc, oiled it. We attached it to a 2 inch venturi. I like having some type of reference in the airplane for that occasion when I (hopefully not) find myself suddenly IMC.

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 13:42

I have an electric and it works fine. I took my private checkride with it.

I'm curious about using a venturi-powered device as a way to assure yourself that you can get out of unexpected IMC. In the winter, flying strictly under VFR, I don't have an airspeed indicator about as often as I do. That little bitty cold pitot really likes to freeze over. It takes about one snowflake to start "losing airspeed," and by the time I've been in any sort of frozen atmospheric moisture for a minute or so, I'm cruising at zero. I assume the next thing after the pitot to freeze over would be the venturi, although I'm not sure it would matter by then if you were already in hard IMC with no airspeed. What am I missing?

Post by **joea** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 16:11

Dusty,

What you are missing is that most of us do not fly in conditions anywhere near what you fly in, so do not worry about it as much.

In your shoes, an electric gyro is the only choice IMHO, but for me down in Arizona the venturi works just fine.

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 19:27

Dusty wrote: What am I missing?

Hi Dusty. Your missing, "it was 75 degrees here yesterday and my darn grass is starting to grow again". What's with this crazy wx.? (Also, I left my snow shovel behind when I left Chicago. )

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 19:55

Gotcha. Where I am, this:

leads to this:

That's 95.8 on the GPS and 0.0 on the airspeed, if you can't see the picture. The first picture looks worse than it is - that's maybe 1.5 mi visibility in light snow.

stknrdr · Post by **stknrdr** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 20:33

The volume of responses is super! I'll try to respond to each in order.

Please read to the end as I'm having a "supplemental" problem.

1. Joea - My all-time favorite a/c was our 7CCM C-90 on EDO 1650's that I flew the wings off of, back in the 60's, around the Chesapeake Bay. (Second choice - Volpar Beech D-18 we had) When the LSA/SP thing came in, I didn't even consider a J-3, although I had time in one way back when. I also remembered being forced (by my Dad) as an 18 yoa CFI to give SES instruction to the DPE who gave me my PPL checkride. He'd been teaching in Cherokee 140's and ALON Aircoupes for quite awhile. Had no idea what the rudder bars were for. Remember telling my dad that under no circumstances should the SOB be allowed to solo our a/c. DPE killed himself and passengers a few years later on a night VFR approach. Confirmed my suspicions. Anyway, I think that the Champ is the ultimate trainer and if my wife could learn to fly it well, she'd be ahead of the game.

2. Mnflyer:

At your convenience, could you give me the specs on your T&B? Reasons below. Thanks for the affirmation on the PPL 7AC checkride. Although her airwork is good and getting better (now that she's figured out what "stick all the way back" means on landing), the Wife is somewhat "systems challenged" and I'm trying to keep everything as simple as possible for her.

3. Roger:

Thanks! I'm now leaning toward the vacuum installation. My Dad was a WWII C-46 "Hump" pilot and also flew almost everything in the AAF inventory as a pilot w/ the Ferry Command. He was in his mid-20's in 1942 and therefore too old for "combat" duty (had a lot of pre-war time).

4. Dusty

Are you the guy from supercub.org w/ the high HP Champ (blue/grey?)? If so, my hat is off to you. What you do with a Champ is way beyond my testosterone level at my age. I'm in eastern NC and if freezing PRECIP is in the forecast, we're not even going to go to BK for a Whopper. A heavy frost closes the school system down for the day. I totally understand what you mean w/ the icing issue. My current thought is that it would be more likely that the electrical system might go T/U and at least the Wife would have the Sporty's hand held/VOR and the vacuum T&B.

JOEA is spot on. You're not missing a thing. It's just different conditions and missions. At this point, airport hopping is the "Tail Dragon"'s mission. Airport hopping down here means 40-70 NM.

BTW, Dusty, do you have a VOR in that thing? I'm hoping the DPE will be cool w/ the CDI on the Sporty's 200.

Please see next post for problems I am having w/my A&P/IA with this project.

May be a couple of days as I'm office swamped right now.

Thanks to everyboby for the replies.

Tim

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 21:08

Tim,

No, that's not me. I do have a 115HP Lyc - don't know that anyone's ever called that "high HP" tho! About 90% of my landings are off-airport, if that counts for anything. I have NO idea how you guys deal with traffic and airspace issues - I'll take a short nasty ridgeline any day!

I do not have a VOR. I figured that if I ever did anything exceptionally stoopid, it would be looking at what you see in that picture and not in a rented C-150 with all the bells and whistles, and I had no problem convincing my instructor and examiner of the same. I'd recommend the same approach to anyone. After being under the hood with what you see, I flew a Pacer with a DG, horizon, and VOR under the hood a bit. It was SO comparatively simple!

Fortunately, we don't really get much of icing here (too cold). Just enough to plug a pitot (or venturi??)!

On a warmer day....

stknrdr · Post by **stknrdr** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 22:24

Dusty:

It's you, alright, you rascal! I got the colors wrong and 115 is mucho HP for someone running an A-75, but your escapades on sc.org precede you. Surely it's you.

Have you got the rudder cables running underneath the floorboards for increased baggage space? If so, do you you know of an STC or 337 to permit this? The wife and I were headed to an overnight fly-in this fall and couldn't even pack so much as a folding lawn chair.

Thanks,

Tim

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 22:42

Pretty sure you're not thinking of me.

I do have the cables under the floor. I believe it's the elevator cables that get in the way on the normal setup. I believe it's field approved - it's been that way forever as far as I know.

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 13:59

Hi Tim I sent you a PM about the T&B

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 17:32

Dustt--

Tell me about your "furnace" in the picture.

Doug

rogerj · Post by **rogerj** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 16:53

Installed a vacuum T & B in my 7CCM which was a total bust. Apparently the air flow around the cowl separated along the side of the fuselage where the venturi was located. Tried 2 different 2" venturis and 2 T & B's in all combinations: not enough suction. Removed the internals from an
old T & B; the ball works great! Go electric! - Roger Johnson

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