Being welcome at your FBO

[Jerry Eichenberger]

In the discussion of a Chief for sale, the thread got a little off topic, so I'll put my comments here.

Grumps made an observation that Chiefs (and it could apply to all of the small, classic airplanes) aren't all that welcome at many FBOs. Since I own an FBO, please let me chime in a bit.

Margins at smaller airport FBOs are very thin, especially for fuel sales. At our place, we often have a margin on 100LL at only around 42 cents. Not always, but often. Since we have all become so addicted to credit cards, most customers pay by credit card. The card processing fees average around 3% of the total sale, so that pushes about 17 cents per gallon at today's prices. Hence, our margin can go as low as 25 cents per gallon. So when a classic airplane buys its typical 10 gallons, we might make as little as $2.50 on the sale. When you put 5 gallons in your airplane, it barely pays the electric bill to run the fuel pump.

Small classic airplanes may not be attractive to your FBO for some other reasons too. Many are flown sporadically, typically on weekends or evenings during nice weather, and most sit mainly idle all winter. If you are on a waiting list for a hangar, and the FBO jumps over you to put a twin or Bonanza in the hangar, realize that he's doing that to stay in business. Higher performance airplanes typically fly more, naturally consume more fuel, and consume more maintenance services. Most of them get 50 hour servicing, and a routine annual can run $3,000+ without any undue repairs.

At our place, we have several classic airplanes. At least 2 Champs, one T-craft, one Luscombe, and several homebuilts. Here are some suggestions for how to relate to your FBO:

1. Quit using credit cards. I'll put our customers on a 30 day house account rather than suffer the processing fees. And we'll email the bill to you rather than spend 42 cents in postage to mail it. Ask your FBO if he'll do likewise. If you pay in cash, or with a good check when you buy fuel, I'll give you a 10 cent per gallon discount. I'd rather do that for my customer than pay the credit card company.

2. Buy all of your fuel from your FBO. Only a fool thinks he saves any money flying to the airport 15 miles away to get fuel for a few pennies per gallon less than at his home airport. We have one guy at our place who does own a higher performance single who buys no fuel nor any maintenance from us. But he has no problem drinking our coffee or eating the donuts that we have on weekend mornings. I could throw up every time I see him. He clearly is on the edge.

3. Get your maintenance done at your FBO, and be patient if a business airplane has a probelm and the mechanic needs to devote his attention to getting such an airplane back in service. Realize that our recreational use of an airplane isn't as vital as business use is to the owner of the airplane used for business travel.

4. Do something unexpected and nice, such as tossing a $5 bill into the coffee kitty once in a blue moon. It shows you care.

5. Never buy parts elsewhere and ask your FBO to install them. Did you ever take a hamburger patty to Wendy's and ask them to cook it for you?

6. Buy little things, like your charts and supplies, and oil, from your FBO rather than from some catalogue or on-line outfit. There is a little profit in such items, and your FBO needs every cent he can earn.

7. Don't haul mogas into the airport and expect the FBO to smile. He needs to sell every gallon of avgas that he can. And don't expect him to spend thousands of dollars to somehow stock mogas, only to sell maybe 200 gallons a month of it. With the advent of universal ethanol, this is quickly becoming a moot point.

In essence, don't be cheap. The small airport FBO business is a labor of love, and if you expect your FBO to welcome you, you have to be someone who deserves that attention in the first place. At our place, our classic airplane owners are all very nice, welcome customers, and I don't want to lose a single one. It's up to you to be the one that your FBO values.

[MikeB]

Jerry, While I can't disagree with much of what you've written (regarding feeling 'welcome') and it's a good discussion, many of the 'classic' plane owners I know simply can't afford to take their aircraft to a large FBO for service. The difference between flying or not flying for many is being able to burn auto fuel (yes, still available without Ethanol), being on a private grass strip somewhere in the boon docks where they have to perform all the airport maintenance including cutting the grass and cleaning the port a potty, and assisting with supervised annuals or maintenance.

At a local FBO, hangar rent is about $150-200 a month, fuel is $5.75 a gallon for 100LL and not sure about labor rate but guess it's somewhere in the $75-100 hour range. Plus they pretty much want to work on twins or corporate jets which I can fully understand. I spent a number of years as a service manager for a large nationwide truck dealership before going into education so I have a pretty good idea where and how the money is made (it ain't easy).

I don't want you to get the impression that I'm knocking anyone trying to make a living in a tough business but rather trying to point out that there are reasons for the options people take. Heck, my wife ran a small business for almost 20 years and it was not a 8 hour a day job. Not to mention the cash out lay and supplier headaches.

Some ask why I drive school bus on a part time basis (at age 69) and I tell them " To pay for my bad habits, flying and building".

Mike Berg

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Mike -

Thanks for the reply. I have absolutely NO problem with anyone who wants to keep his airplane at a private strip, do his own maint., or put mogas in it, if all done there.

What I was trying to do is to explain why an FBO at a public airport, even a small, single runway, county airport like our place, can't survive on classic, 65 - 90 hp, two place airplanes that only rent hangar space, and spend no other money there.

At our FBO, the county keeps the T hangars, so we don't get a penny of revenue from them. We do have a large community hangar that holds big airplanes, but the classic crowd wants a T hangar where the guys can work on, polish, and baby their airplanes, and again, I certainly understand and appreciate that.

In essence, IF you want the convenience of a public airport with paved runway that you can fly from year around, a mechanic there to help when your airplane is sick, etc. please help support that FBO.

To me (I'm naturally partial to classic airplanes), I love to have them at our place, but I don't like it when an owner of any airplane does nothing to help our little business ssurvive.

As I said earlier, the guy with the Comanche 250 makes me sick - and when the lady who owns the T-craft comes out to the airport, I'm the first to volunteer to prop her airplane for her, as she does what little she can to support the airport.

[joea]

Mike brings up a good point. I do not want an airport with a paved runway. Grass or dirt would be fine with me for our antique airplanes, but there are simply none available anywhere near where I am located.

I live two miles away from one of the few GA airports in my area where you can get a T hangar in a reasonable time frame. Others in this area have a 6 year waiting list, while mine was 18 months.

There are two FBO's on my field and neither of them would know what to do with a fabric airplane. A friend of mine took his 1950 Bonanza to one of them (a Beech Dealer) several years ago for his annual and the bill was over $23k after all was said and done. He is an A&P and simply did not have time to do everything. His quote for the annual was less than $3k. The list of things replaced that did not need to be replaced was very long and they screwed him royally. Wonder why he will never go back and why the word has gotten around to the general aviation community to never use this FBO? They now survive on doing maintenance on flying school airplanes.

I use auto fuel for two reasons. It allows me to fly more often than if I had to use only 100LL and my engine likes it better.

[kyleb]

Jerry, I greatly sympathize with the plight of the FBO owner and fully understand your concerns. After all, you run a business, not a flying club.

I struggle with one of the issues you brought up. The FBO at my field typically sells fuel for $0.50 to $0.75 more than nearby fields. "My" FBO also has fuel trucks where the competition has self serve.

The fuel trucks are a put-off for several reasons. 1) Having the truck and someone on hand 12 hours a day to operate it probably drives the $0.50 to $0.75 premium on the cost of fuel. 2) I'd rather fuel my airplane myself - less dings, drips, etc. 3) I prefer to fuel on my own schedule, rather than at the convenience of the FBO.

Regardless of that, I still feel guilty when I fire up the airplane and fly to the next field over to buy gas. I know "my" FBO needs the business, but they have created a bad business model for me.

[SFC Hiatt]

I wouldn't be me if I didn't chime in with something.

I fully understand that FBO's have to make money. However, as a guy who is only in aviation because of the sport pilot ruling and the generosity of other pilot/mechanics I think that expecting me to financially help keep FBO's in business equal to the guys in the Citations is not realistic. If that day ever comes I will probably be forced out of aviation.

Those of you who read this post and say that snot nosed punk should not be in aviation if he can't afford it..............maybe the reason for the huge drop in the pilot population lies within this post.

Chris

[joea]

Chris,

There are many people in your/our position in that we are scrimping by to enjoy our flying hobby. I used to wear a US Army uniform and know how the pay is, so being thrifty is something that you do to survive.

We cannot compete with a Citation or even a Baron owner. Of course most Citation or Baron owners are not interested in self fueling or owner maintenance, so thats where the FBO's need to focus.

Joe

[MikeB]

But as I said, Jerry makes a lot of good points. He's in a very tough and competitive business with more regulations that many of us would care to deal with. Not to mention the overhead, insurance and restrictions that the county probably puts on him regarding hangers, fueling (you name it).

Although we have a full service FBO a few miles away, I tend to avoid it due to the paved runway and tower operation. I can and do deal with them on occasion but it's easier to stay in my comfort zone as long as I'm flying the Champ. Besides most of my friends usually hang out at our airport.

Mostly it's a matter of different aircraft owners having different wants and needs IMHO.

Mike Berg

[WWhunter]

Well I just wrote a LONG post and it didn't get posted. I'll try a condensed version.

Jerry, I understand your plight. There are lots of good FBO's out there that operate as you say you do. The problem I have is the ones that don't. I live up in Northern Mn. and there are lots of old planes up here. The nearby FBO should be more accomedating to them. The owner is a nice guy. But his idea of working with the little guys doesn't appear to be the same as mine.

When I first brought my 172 up here (wife is Army so we are all over the country) to base it since we will be retiring here, I wanted to help him out the most I could. Bought my Av-gas from him (I use mostly auto-fuel mixed with 100LL), had him do my annual twice. That's where I had a problem.

I did an owner assist annual. I removed all the pertinent panels, interoir, covers, cowling, packed the bearings, changed the oil, replaced the ELT battery since I had a new one from the last annual, and cleaned and gapped the plugs. There was a small hole that had been punctured in the side that needed fixing so I expected that to cost some money($300 I think). Basicly, did everything but the inspection.

He had the plane for 6 weeks because he had to take care of his "High Dollar" customers first. He had told me when I brought it in that it would be done the next day or two. I was getting upset because he knew my son was home from college and was trying to get his PPL during his break. I was billed $1800!!! After looking at the bill he charged me for things that he didn't do. I nearly fell over.

Oh, forgot to mention..I put it all back together after he inspected it. Besides the fact that my son got in a whooping 15 hrs of flight time. Well, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and figured it was the first time doing it at his place and he needed to know the plane. Well, the next year....same thing except the bill was a little better...$1200. Needless to say I have NOT been back. After being back in the area I finally heard the "gossip" that he was expensive and liked to "hang" with the rich boys more than us little guys.

On a side note, I think he has a good business going but he sure isn't helping out the smaller GA guys. These are some of the guys that may upgrade later and might have a "sour taste in their mouth' from previous experience with him. That is something I don't thin he realizes.

Keith

[joea]

Keith,

Your post is almost a duplicate of what happened to me almost 30 years ago. I owned a stiff leg Cessna Cardinal with a very good friend. We did everything to the airplane ourselves, pulled the interior, covers, did the wheel bearings and so on.

The IA at the FBO ended up replacing the spark plugs (they had less than 300 hours on them but we trusted them) and charged us just short of $2000 for an annual! And this was in 1978 money!

I made the decision to get my A&P that summer and left the next year to spend 18 months in school. It only takes getting screwed a couple of times like that to leave a bad taste in your mouth and move on.

Joe A

[Jerry Eichenberger]

I'll try to discuss the previous several replies, but may miss a thing or two.

First, as to fuel trucks: Few really small airport FBOs have them, but at mid size and larger facilities, they are the norm. The big reason is, at these larger facilties, it's easier, and more convenient for the customer, not to ask the customer to taxi up to a fuel island, shut down, fuel, re-start, and taxi back to a hangar maybe 1/2 a mile or farther away from the fuel pump. Most customers prefer to just land, taxi to their hangar, and have the fuel truck come to them. Plus, of course, it's faster - the customer can just taxi to his hanagar and leave, and the FBO can do the fueling when it conveniently fits into the line crew's work pattern. And, trucks also avoid congestion around a fuel island at a busy FBO. We don't have any trucks at our place.

As to maintenance rip-offs: Thay can occur anywhere. Here in Columbus, one of the best tube and fabric guys works at the big international airport's primary FBO. They are expensive. Our guys maintain my Champ, and a few other classics, but they aren't into a total re-covering, for instance. As for engines, not a problem most places. If a guy can work on an O-200 in a C-150, he can work on any small Continental engine.

As for people flying on a budget: Been there, done that. I was one of those kids who, at 12 years old, was mowing lawns and shoveling snow in the old neighborhood where I grew up, saving money for flying lessons. I learned to fly at age 18 at a gravel runway airport, in an old Champ, because it was the cheapest place in central Ohio. No one should be ashamed, or be treated ill, because of the airplane he choses to fly, or by his economic circumstance. One of the nicest guys at our place is a factory worker who has a Titan Tornado, formerly a heavy untralight, now an E-LSA. Everyone really likes this guy - he's a hoot, and would do anything for anybody, and he's treated that way in return by us and the other customers.

As to owner assisted annuals: For us, it depends on who the owner is. Will he help, or just be a pain in the arse, and will he delay things a bunch thru wanting to be educated on our mechanics' time? The other big problem is liability. In order to assure that an owner does things right, including putting the airplane back together and closing it up, our guys have to stand and watch him constantly. If we're going to spend the time doing that, why shouldn't we just do the work, and be sure it gets done right? And remember, the airplane owner isn't the only guy to sue after an accident - passengers, and people on the ground can too.

This is getting too long - better wait till the next time for more.

[Captgrumps]

Joe--

That is why I got my A&P 50 years ago and my IA 40 years ago. Now I have the gras field and own fuel to go with it. Just looked at a Champ that went to one of those advertised places for an annual while changing it to larger tires. First thing I found was a cracked break lining that had eons of brake dust and dirt in it along with skimpy bearing grease . They had recently put tires on it and must have used a whole can of talcum powder on the tire and tube. It was on the tube and in the tire lumpy and had so much it affected the balance of the tire. The balance point of the tire in the wrong location. Don't know how much he paid. Some annual write offs look like fairy tales. Many people speak --" is it legal" while flying around with a Brackett air filter not documented.

Doug

[WWhunter]

Jerry,
As for the owner assist annual and liability...I whole heartedly agree that is an issue in this sue happy world we live in. I do understand what you are saying about having the 'look over the shoulder' aspect but in my case all this was accomplished in MY hangar and a non-issue for them. The plane was then towed to their maintaince shop, and then towed back where I reassembled. I am trying to say I agree with you but there are always variables in any situation.

Joe,
Yep, left a very bad taste in my mouth. And that is unfortunate because overall they are good people and I like them. I just will not do business with them unless I have to...such as getting Cessna parts since they are the local dealer.

After the previously listed episode I had to find another guy to do my annuals. He comes to my home strip and does the Champ for me. I do most of the work, he inspects and I pay a reasonable fee and pay for his gas. We are both happy and I am notupset when I ask him "How much do I owe you?" I am happy to pay him.

As for getting my A&P... I wish I could, I seriously thought about it when we were stationed in AZ. It would have been a short drive down to the Cochise college campus.....I had a severe back injury and there is no way I could complete the class in any reasonable time.

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Guys -

There something an owner can really do to help reduce maintenance costs, and frankly, this will do more to help you, and your mechanic than you may first realize - volunteer to be the "parts chaser".

Mechanics work, and get paid by the hour. Once an hour ticks by on the clock, it's gone forever, and if a mechanic (car, boat, motorcycle, airplane, whatever) hasn't charged for it, it's the same as a grocery store throwing meat out in the trash - gone forever with no revenue.

Very few mechanics really charge for the time spent chasing parts - they
should, in good business practice, but most don't. VERY FEW airplane owners realize how much time it may take an A&P to find brake clips for a Champ, as a "for instance". Unless he's intimately familiar with every single airplane type that comes into the shop, there's always that strange part or ten that he has to spend a great amount of time trying to find.

Don't try to buy the part yourself - remember what I said about taking a hamburger patty to Wendy's and asking them to cook it.

What you can do is ask your A&P for the name and number of the parts suppliers he uses, and volunteer to spend time on the phone, getting the part numbers for what is needed, then give that part number to your A&P.

You could literally save hundreds of dollars by doing this small, but very time consuming task. Then the A&P can call the place, and order the part in a two minute call rather than a possible 30 minute converastion.

One last comment about Joe's friend's experience with the 1950 Bonanza. Old, expensive airplanes are a real hassle to afford. Be aware, any airplane is only a collection of parts. When each part is bought separately, this collection costs at least 3 times what the entire airplane did when new, let alone te labor to install that replacement part. I constantly tell people who are considering an old 210, Comanche, Bonanza, etc. that they are buying something that, if it were new, would be selling for $600,000+ (really, no joke - look at Monney's new Acclaim), and the parts for it, IF they can be found, will be priced accordingly.

If you're on a tight budget - avoid old, complex airplanes like the plague.

[Paul Agaliotis]

Everyone has a story of what did happen at the local FBO. I would like to put a little spin on the subject.
If you have a Champ due for Annual and no work is accomplished other than the routine inspection. What do you feel the cost should be?
Paul