Wheel landings
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john-ranger
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Wheel landings
Are wheel landings the preferred way to land?
Which airplane? What are the winds?
Depends on a lot of variable factors. I prefer three pointing most of the time but if its a strong crosswind many people like wheel landings.
Assume that this is on a Chief/Champ? Heavier airplanes in many cases tend to lean towards wheel landings but not all the time.
Depends on a lot of variable factors. I prefer three pointing most of the time but if its a strong crosswind many people like wheel landings.
Assume that this is on a Chief/Champ? Heavier airplanes in many cases tend to lean towards wheel landings but not all the time.
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Roger Anderson
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Re: Wheel landings
I don't think there is any right or wrong answer. Like Joe, I consider a 3 point landing the normal for me. However, I'm more inclined to wheel land my chief in calm or slight tail wind conditions, only because it wheels on so easily. Some prefer to wheel land in a crosswind or gusty winds. I prefer to 3 point in a crosswind/gusty wind because I don't like the transistion period and poor control during the lowering of the tail. Practice both, enjoy what you prefer.john-ranger wrote:Are wheel landings the preferred way to land?
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john-ranger
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Roger Anderson
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Not to imply which is better, 3 point or wheel landing, that's a personal decision, however...I agree that flying the airplane onto the runway with a small amount of power, doing a wheel landing, is indeed a controllable and easier way to have the aircraft arrive on the runway surface.john-ranger wrote:(For my 7AC) wheel landings, the constant pitch attitude seems like it offers a lot more directional control, whether it's windy or calm. Fly it onto the runway, around 1500-1600 rpm, 60-65mph.
However, now that you have arrived, the issue begins especially when in a crosswind situation. You have essentially a flying airplane with two wheels rolling down the runway. Power has to now be completely removed and the airplane allowed to decelerate enough for the tail to descend to the runway.
It's this transition period where control can become difficult to maintain, to the point that differential braking might be a necessary component in maintaining control until you have tail wheel steering effectiveness.
With a good set of hydraulic brakes, they can be used effectively. However, with the non linear and grabby Goodyear brakes on a Chief, they are not easily used in a critical directional control situation. The difficult reach to the heal brakes in a Champ makes them not that much help either.
Anyhow, 3 point or wheel landing, neither is right or wrong. It's just what you feel most comfortable with and also what type aircraft you are flying.
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aeroncafan
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I like Roger's analysis...I tend to do more 3 pointers, as you have to get that 3rd wheel down at some point, regardless of the wind. May as well be sooner than later from my perspective.
Last edited by aeroncafan on Wed Jan 21, 2009 19:49, edited 2 times in total.
Donald
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Jody Wittmeyer
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From Aeronca's to Stearmans, of the several I have seen ground looped, They were wheeled on. Everything fine until 1) you try to steer with brakes and go over on your back. ( saw this 4 times) or 2) As the plane slows, the tail starts to come down, you turn into a windvane with no, or very limited, rudder authority and no tail wheel steering.
Blue Skies and Stay Safe, and preserve 'em
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mike newall
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7AC's, reasonable runway length (700m) - oo, sorry (2300ft) wheel it on, look cool, enjoy 
Shorter runways - wheel it on when you are very comfortable with the above.
I have wheeled on in 20kts across, but only to p*ss off the airport owner, and I only put the into wind wheel on, then went round and then did the standard crab, kick, feel, touch, pedal, sweat, drink beer landing
Mike
Shorter runways - wheel it on when you are very comfortable with the above.
I have wheeled on in 20kts across, but only to p*ss off the airport owner, and I only put the into wind wheel on, then went round and then did the standard crab, kick, feel, touch, pedal, sweat, drink beer landing
Mike
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Carl Prather
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Wheel landings
John,
It's smart the keep equally proficient at doing clean wheel and full stall landings. I think, in general, it's safest to land at the lowest speed consistent with the weather and runway surface conditions. I have seen airplanes ground loop from both two and three point positions. All of the planes I've ever seen ground loop were in calm winds!
It's smart the keep equally proficient at doing clean wheel and full stall landings. I think, in general, it's safest to land at the lowest speed consistent with the weather and runway surface conditions. I have seen airplanes ground loop from both two and three point positions. All of the planes I've ever seen ground loop were in calm winds!
If you ever intend to fly off-airport you should also be proficient in a tail-low wheel landing, at least if you want to re-use your tailwheel.
60-65 MPH... is 20 MPH too fast for me. I have no idea what the gauges say when I'm trying to get it on short. I like to have a bit of slop in the stick, and maybe feel a bump go across the tail every now and then. I'll probably need a fair bit of power and/or forward stick right when I touch if I need to keep the tail wheel up, but it won't hit hard if I don't.
that's a personal decision
It may be a personal decision, but there are WRONG choices to be made. If you're landing in rocks much bigger than your tailwheel, keep the tailwheel out of them. If it's gusting much over 20, wheel landings aren't much fun on rough or narrow strips. Every situation is a bit different, and sometimes it matters very much what decision you make.
essentially a flying airplane....Power has to now be completely removed...differential braking...difficult reach to the heal brakes
I'll use every tool I have to make the airplane do what I want. This sounds like you're just sort of herding the airplane towards the runway and hoping it stops somewhere, maybe facing in the direction you intended sometimes. I use every control in the airplane to my advantage at every opportunity. That throttle still works on the ground and can be used, for example, to FORCE the tail where you want it, maybe to reduce AOA and MAKE the airplane stop flying so the brakes start working. You don't have to just hope it happens, and you don't have to continue something that isn't working. Maybe it makes sense to get the tail down on what started as a wheel landing, or roll it up on the mains instead of carrying through with an intended 3-point. You really just have to react to what the airplane is telling you.
try to steer with brakes and go over on your back
That's certainly a possibility, but it ain't the brake's fault. If I'm going somewhere short, I'll land with a fair bit of brake already on, and use as much as I can (in conjunction with the stick and throttle) to keep my tailwheel wherever I want it, all the while steering with as much brake as I need (and/or wishing I had more!). If I end up with a skylight full of sand I won't blame the airplane. I practice heavy braking every time, on every surface and at every weight I can, by the way. I'll HAPPILY replace my brake pads as often as necessary for the practice.
If you're just trying to get on in 2000 feet of maintained runway, feel free to ignore all the above - you really don't need it.
60-65 MPH... is 20 MPH too fast for me. I have no idea what the gauges say when I'm trying to get it on short. I like to have a bit of slop in the stick, and maybe feel a bump go across the tail every now and then. I'll probably need a fair bit of power and/or forward stick right when I touch if I need to keep the tail wheel up, but it won't hit hard if I don't.
that's a personal decision
It may be a personal decision, but there are WRONG choices to be made. If you're landing in rocks much bigger than your tailwheel, keep the tailwheel out of them. If it's gusting much over 20, wheel landings aren't much fun on rough or narrow strips. Every situation is a bit different, and sometimes it matters very much what decision you make.
essentially a flying airplane....Power has to now be completely removed...differential braking...difficult reach to the heal brakes
I'll use every tool I have to make the airplane do what I want. This sounds like you're just sort of herding the airplane towards the runway and hoping it stops somewhere, maybe facing in the direction you intended sometimes. I use every control in the airplane to my advantage at every opportunity. That throttle still works on the ground and can be used, for example, to FORCE the tail where you want it, maybe to reduce AOA and MAKE the airplane stop flying so the brakes start working. You don't have to just hope it happens, and you don't have to continue something that isn't working. Maybe it makes sense to get the tail down on what started as a wheel landing, or roll it up on the mains instead of carrying through with an intended 3-point. You really just have to react to what the airplane is telling you.
try to steer with brakes and go over on your back
That's certainly a possibility, but it ain't the brake's fault. If I'm going somewhere short, I'll land with a fair bit of brake already on, and use as much as I can (in conjunction with the stick and throttle) to keep my tailwheel wherever I want it, all the while steering with as much brake as I need (and/or wishing I had more!). If I end up with a skylight full of sand I won't blame the airplane. I practice heavy braking every time, on every surface and at every weight I can, by the way. I'll HAPPILY replace my brake pads as often as necessary for the practice.
If you're just trying to get on in 2000 feet of maintained runway, feel free to ignore all the above - you really don't need it.
I like Dusty's answer. The truth of the matter is... it depends.
I once landed at a friend's strip in the winter, not realizing that the tracks I saw weren't from airplanes, but were snow-mobile (snow machines, for you Alaskans) and ATV tracks.
The snow was 8-10 inches deep (I was on 7.00 tires), but still a bit 'fluffy'. As soon as I touched, I realized the error and started adding power. At the end of a very abbreviated roll-out, I was at full power and barely moving. The tail stayed on the ground, though!
I like the tail low wheelie. It's a converted three-point landing. Once you roll up onto the mains, there's no more flying left in the wings; you're on the ground. You can add power to hold the tail up, or, if you have to stand on the brakes, to keep the tail down. Lots of power and back stick will take all the brake pedal an old Champ can muster unless you have a good set of Clevelands.
Dusty flies into places that make the rest of us wet our pants; listen to the man!
I once landed at a friend's strip in the winter, not realizing that the tracks I saw weren't from airplanes, but were snow-mobile (snow machines, for you Alaskans) and ATV tracks.
The snow was 8-10 inches deep (I was on 7.00 tires), but still a bit 'fluffy'. As soon as I touched, I realized the error and started adding power. At the end of a very abbreviated roll-out, I was at full power and barely moving. The tail stayed on the ground, though!
I like the tail low wheelie. It's a converted three-point landing. Once you roll up onto the mains, there's no more flying left in the wings; you're on the ground. You can add power to hold the tail up, or, if you have to stand on the brakes, to keep the tail down. Lots of power and back stick will take all the brake pedal an old Champ can muster unless you have a good set of Clevelands.
Dusty flies into places that make the rest of us wet our pants; listen to the man!
Jon B.
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Kalahnikid
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WWhunter
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Plane for sale....needs minor repairs....slightly dented.
What a PI$$ER!!! That sure looked like it WAS nice plane.
As for landings......I pretty much follow the way Dusty recommends. I have a short strip surrounded by trees and have no choice but to 3-point it most of the time. I like thoose big marshmellow tires also. Mine aren't the same size as Dusty's but I have the 26" AkBushwheel Airstreaks. Even when having to drop it in a little harder than normal they sure help absorb the impact. Feels like landing on a sponge.
What a PI$$ER!!! That sure looked like it WAS nice plane.
As for landings......I pretty much follow the way Dusty recommends. I have a short strip surrounded by trees and have no choice but to 3-point it most of the time. I like thoose big marshmellow tires also. Mine aren't the same size as Dusty's but I have the 26" AkBushwheel Airstreaks. Even when having to drop it in a little harder than normal they sure help absorb the impact. Feels like landing on a sponge.
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Jody Wittmeyer
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Kalahnikid
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My folks had that plane from 80-89 when they sold it for the 170. In (1991/2?) the guy who bought it flew in and was doing a wheel landing and got up on the toe brakes. That was his last flight, he was so shook up he sold the plane and quit flying. Someone bought it and fixed it and now its in a flying club in Indiana, I think.Jody Wittmeyer wrote:Kalahnikid wrote:The strip I recognize, the plane I don'tJody Wittmeyer wrote: you try to steer with brakes and go over on your back. ( saw this 4 times)
In an unrelated story my instructor had me doing wheel landings tonight at Greater Peoria and I really greased a few of them on.