No-bounce gear and LSA

flyingfool · Post by **flyingfool** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:39

I don't know too much about this. But I've gathered that there is an STC for a no bounce gear that allows a higher gross weight if installed.

I further gathered that this STC allows the gross weight to be increased to a higher weight than the 1,320 pound LSA limit.

My question is: Does the STC only allow the gross weight change to a specific maximum weight, or does it allow the gross weight to be raised "up to" that weight.?

In other words, could a person install the no bounce gear on a standard 11AC, and then raise & establish the new gross weight of only 1,320 pounds in order to maintain the aircraft within LSA rules? Even though the STC would allow an even higher weight.

Post by **joea** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 15:16

The "no bounce" gear can be installed and no weight increase done, or the weight can be increased to 1319 or whatever you wish to a max limit of I believe 1350 pounds.

There is no "STC" for this, the "no bounce" gear is factory made parts so you install it as per the Type Certificate Data Sheet, make the logbook entry and fly.

The problem is that many of our old Aeronca's have had the "no bounce" gear installed and the GW increased to 1350 or so as is allowed with that gear, and once that is done and the FAA notified, the airplane (as the rules stand now) will never be legal for LSA.

You noticed that I said "FAA notified" in the above? If the airplane has the "no bounce" gear installed and this has not been submitted to the FAA in OKC (get the CD and check) then the airplane could be LSA legal.

Ed Clark · Post by **Ed Clark** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 18:38

Joe,

I'm not sure that you can set your own max weight. The language in the TC says: 1300 lb. May be increased to 1350 lb. when "Long Stroke Oleo Landing Gear",
Aeronca P/N 3-665, installed and placard, "Intentional spinning prohibited when baggage carried", Aeronca P/N 1-2929, installed on instrument panel. C.G. range at 1350 lb. is as follows:
(+16.

to (+20.4) at 1350 lb.
(+10.0) to (+20.4) at 1087 lb. or less
Straight line variation between points given.

Knowing the FAA I believe that they will interpret "increased to 1350" as a set amount since it doesn't say "increased up to 1350"....

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 19:07

Hi, I believe Ed Clark is right one can not decide the Max Wt. per the TC's its the Max Wt of a Champ (7DC) is either 1300 or 1350 Lb.
Joe is right in that if the Max Wt has been increased to 1350 and the aircraft records reflect that then the aircraft is no long LSA legal but the long stroke oleos can be installed without increasing the Max Wt and then the aircraft's Max Wt. remains as it is.
The question I have is, are the long stroke oleos approved for the Chief / 11AC. Another person asked about installing the long stroke oleos on a Chief, I checked the TCDS and could not find any mention of them in the Chief TC.

Jody Wittmeyer · Post by **Jody Wittmeyer** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 20:10

The no bounce allow you to add 50 pounds. If you have a 7DC with a 1300 gross weight, you can up it to 1350. You don't have to. If you have a 7BCM it takes it to 1270. Altough they put them on 7AC's, I have not found where they allow a weight increase.

Post by **joea** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 20:39

The reason why the no bounce gear are not on the TCDS for the Chief is that this gear was developed for the L-16, and not the Chief or Scout airplanes.

That said, the landing gear is the same for both airplanes and bet that this has been done before.

Joe

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 20:44

Looking at my Wagner STC to install the 0200 in my L16 (7BCM) it states "the aircraft is brought up to 7CCM-90 horse configuration and a maximum weight of 1300 # which 'may' be brought up to 1350 when the 'no-bouce' gear is installed". Interesting in the fact that Wagner's STC SA-3-372 is based on the 7AC and 7AC CONV. A clamp on dorsal fin is recommended but not required. So my interpertation is that the max weight is 1300 # (for my purposes, anyway).

Love this Wagner STC. Lot's of 'options' is putting it lightly

.

Mike Berg

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 00:44

Your creativity and the Fed you're working with have a lot to do with it.

nkh

flyingfool · Post by **flyingfool** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 13:22

Yes I have a Chief. So I infer that installing the no bounce gear you MAY raise the gross weight by 50 lbs.

I would love to know if this can be done on a Chief. The Chief 11AC & I believe the 11BC has a gross weight of 1,250 lbs. So even raising it the full 50 pounds would still keep it LSA legal and the extra 50 pounds useful would be VERY welcome to have!
But I suppose a new weight and balance limitations would have to be established for a 11AC & BC Chief which apparently has not been done. But the 11CC super chief has a gross weight of 1,350 and I'm not sure exactly what the difference is between the 11BC (85HP & 1,250 gross) and the 11CC (85HP & 1,350 gross). Does the 11CC have the no bounce gear as original equipment? And the 11CC has an established W&B maybe this no bounce added 50 lbs still could be done to 11AC &BC.

It would seem reasonable although maybe not FAA technically legal. That the 11AC & BC could install the no bounce gear and simply use the W&B to 1,300 gross weight and other restrictions. But maybe that is too simple of a way to look at it.

How would one find out or what would have to be done to get this approved on a 11AC & 11BC Cheifs?

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 14:22

Hi there is no approval for the long stroke oleo installation on the Chief series aircraft the 11AC & 11BC TCSD are number A-761 and the Super Chief 11CC is under A796 so it was a completely new and different aircraft as far as the FAA and no mention of the long stroke oles on either TCDS, now the 7 series aircraft are on TC a-759 and the 7DC, the 7CCM and the very first 7EC's have the option of installing the long stroke oleos with the option to increase the Max wt.
So to install the long stroke oleos on a Chief / 11BC one would need to do one of three things 1. get and STC to do so with an increase of Max wt. 2. get a one time STC with a increase in Max wt.
3. try for a 337 field approval to install the long stroke oleo (getting and increase in Max wt will all but be out).

PS I forgot option 4. the ISE option (Install Shutup and Enjoy

)

SFC Hiatt · Post by **SFC Hiatt** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 15:59

I'm worried about ISE option if I have an accident.

jc pacquin · Post by **jc pacquin** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 16:21

If it were mine, I would put it on and say nothing, do nothing. The chances of one of those drones catching it would be (in my humble estimation) one in a million. I'm NOT a mechanic but it seems to me that its a pretty minor item. I could be missing something here, but I would do it. When I was younger alot of this type thing went on INCLUDING ALOT of automobile parts like voltage regulators, generators, and on and on. If it stays in the weight limit, fly onward!

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 17:27

Ya.....but.......if it's not a legal installation, you also can't deal with the paperwork issue and just raise it to 1300#. I agree that it would be a 'minor' change but trying to get a 337 might be another story.

Mike Berg

jc pacquin · Post by **jc pacquin** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 19:50

If I bought that airplane 3-5 years from now, looked it over (it looked good) did a prebuy and the AI said "she looks good to me" I'd buy it and never question the gear, assuming it had been there from birth. The AI would look thru the papers and there would be none on the gear, its just there,and the AI might say "the gear is fine." This is my humble opinion as such and its probably wrong but its what I would do. If its an Aeronca, and its Aeronca landing gear I would rock on, PROVIDED the weight requirement was met. When I owned a Cessna 195, the AI never said "Hey! that voltage regulator is off a 55 Chevy or, that generator is off a 58 ford." I may be way off base here so ask more people. There are experts on this site....I'm not one of them. There is a chief that I see often that HAS no bounce on it. I would bet, knowing the owner who is a master builder, that it "came that way".

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 21:44

Like Buzz Wagner said, "It's not a problem unless you make it one".

Mike B.

National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

No-bounce gear and LSA

No-bounce gear and LSA

Long Stroke Oleos

Aeronca Chief / Long Stroke Oleos

gear

gear