National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

I'm in the process of possibly buying new cylinder kits for my 0200/L16A project. I've been trying to buy most of the more expensive component parts, etc. when the prices are better and it seems some of the suppliers are offering free shipping (for as long as it lasts). Although I didn't need them at the time, I bought $1800 worth of lift struts and links around Christmas when Univair was offering 10% off which probably saved double or three times the price of shipping.

Anyway, looks like there are three possibilities: OEM Continental, ECI steel barrel and ECI nickel barrel. I'm leaning toward ECI as I've heard pretty good things about them....steel or nickel, I'm not sure. There is a price difference of around $2900 steel and $3600 nickel. For infrequent flying, nickel is probably best although I've flown behind steel barrels for 30 years. Also, used Superior over the years but I'd be a bit afraid of them right now, warranty-wise, even if I was able to find a set of four.

My IA guy is 'non-commital' . Seems like he can tell a horror story about any of them.

Input appreciated............

MikeB

Mike,
My advice is, do not buy Continental cylinders. If you do, brand new or not, my IA said that before installing them, one has to dissassemble them, and check the concentricity of the valve guides to the valve seats. Many of the new cylinders have been found to need repair, before you can install them.
I recommend the ECI Nickel cylinders. Gail's Champ has them, and they tested 80/80, all 4 of them.
I have owned continental powered aircraft for decades. In this period, I've never had ONE cylinder test 80/80, much less 4. Joe has seen the same thing. In my opinion, the obvious quality here is no accident.
Unless there is a significant change in cylinder quality, I will not buy any other type/brand.
Just my 2c worth.

Mike

Mike,
I toured the ECI facility on my last visit to San Antonio. I watched them assemble their cylinders. I wouldn't be afraid of the cylinders. They too had some problems with their heads cracking. I have use them and see no issues with them.
Continental has good cylinders also. I like to use them over aftermarket. I have never had the problems that Mike K has had. I have a new one to install this weekend and have no plans of taking it apart. My opinion is that the manufacturer has a much better insight into products they built.
Now, this posting is in regards to C series and O200 cylinders. The big Continentals (520's) have some real life cylinder problems. Continental and the aftermarket have yet to completely solve this problem.
Generally the engine builder will spec the cylinders. Usually by who gives him the largest price break.
If you're on a budget you can check rebuilts or you can go with the cheapest new cylinders, except Superior.
Paul

Paul,
I'm on my way to San Antonio myself in about two weeks to visit our youngest and his family. We'll be down there for a month so I may try to visit the factory myself. I usually go 'stir crazy' anyway sitting around that long. I don't think the cylinders off my engine are rebuildable as they show a lot of rust from sitting around for 40 years. Several years ago I had one A65 cylinder rebuilt (needed guides, etc.) and the cost was around $550 so new cylinders at $800 seem like a better buy.

I've been trying to buy the 'big ticket items' when I have some loose change and before the price goes up.

MikeB

Mike,
Rust is the big killer on these little cylinders. Just about every thing else is repairable.
ECI is on the other side of the airport from the terminal in an industrial complex. They have about four very large buildings. I took the tour to see how they handled and tracked customer parts. I was satisfied that my parts are, and will be kept seperate. Give them a call and check them out.
If you can I would drive out to Kingsbury aerodrome, lots of early WWI stuff.
Paul

We have a Stinson on our field with a 165 Franklin in it. Owned by a elderly gentleman. Several years ago, probably at least 10, he had the engine rebuilt to the tune of $11,000 and it's been basically sitting ever since. I think he flew it once for a hour or so. I'd hate to see what those cylinders look like inside. It does seem if you get a few hundred hours on the engine, a oil scum (for lack of a better word) builds up on the internal metal surfaces and helps protect the metal from rusting. But you're right, the cylinders are the parts that rust attacks the worst. I guess that's one of the benefits of nickel as I understand it. Frequent flying is, of course, the best but I pretty much shut down in the winter up here.

Actually, I was just adding my time up last year for insurance purposes and I only flew about 18 hours total . I spend a lot of time at the airport but most of it must be loafing .

MikeB

Mike

I second every thing that has been said about the ECi nickel cylinders. I have a set on my C-85 I overhauled two years ago. I have been real pleased.

One note about the Continental cylinders. I have been told the cylinders do not have pistons and therefore the cost increases because you have to add the pistons. The ECi cylinders include the pistons but not the piston pins.

I ordered my cylinders from A.E.R.O. They do a nice job and have good pricing. I also purchased most of the other parts I needed for my overhaul from them. They have a warehouse on the East coast so shipping wouldn't be too much. The rest of the parts I needed came from Aircraft Specialties in Tulsa.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Robert

Well, just bite the bullet and order new ECI nickel cylinder kits. Got free shipping so that saves a bunch. The IRS says I have to start drawing out of my retirement account soon and I can't think of a better place to spend it. I need to finish this thing before I'm too old to fly it .

Thanks for the input.

MikeB

I spoke to a 180 Cessna owner last year who said Cerimil (?) are the best. He put them on his 180 engine. Are they ceramic liners? Be careful of my spelling! JC

I think that's what they call them. Supposed to not suffer from rust like steel. Considering how much $$$$ I'm putting in to this L16 project a few more dollars isn't going to make a lot of difference. They're ECI's and the kit comes with gaskets and cylinder seals, etc. but not the wrist pins which I had to buy separately.

Mike

Mike B,

I would install a Franklin engine in my Champ in a flash if they had one available. I know they had a 2/cyl 65 in the ACA, but that didn't turn out so hot. Too bad they didn't make it 4 cyl to begin with, it probably would have been a great engine.

I flew behind a 165 for 18 yrs and loved it. It is the smoothest running, easiest engine to work on I know. I did my own cyl work and had never taken off an aircraft engine cyl before. The only problems I had were valve lifters after a faulty oh, I had to have three cyl redone because the oh left out the lifter valve discs!

The cylinder sleeves are easily replaceable, no oversize boring necessary, all pistons, rings & etc are standard. The main and rod bearings and crank can be inspected by removing a metal plate on top of the case.

Gus,

Believe that Franklin engines are still being made in Poland. Friend of mine did a lot of conversions on Cessna's using Franklins and he loved them.

Joe

Friend of mine at our airport has Stinson (108-3 ??) with a 165 Franklin. Very smooth running engine if a little heavy on the fuel burn. It did drop a valve seat after which caused some funny noises and concern. Thankfully it happened at start up. He pulled the engine and took it Big Red's in Nebraska to have it overhauled. I think the cost was somewhere around $11,000 but he never flew it much afterward, maybe a couple of hours. He was 87 years old and couldn't get in the plane anymore so sold it although it still sits in the hangar (if you can find it among all the junk). Fabric is poor and needs a recover. I think it still has grade A cotton on it. Unsure what the present owner is going to do with it as he lives in Florida.

I don't know if it's typical but I've seen two Franklins blow out the 14 mm plugs and they were torqued in to specs.

MikeB

Mike B,

All the Franklin valve problems I had were caused by the hyd lifters not having check valves installed. I don't think my original overhauler even looked at the lifters.

The result was pounded out valve seats. I had the cyl rebuilt by a guy in OR who did a great job and I rebuilt the lifters, never had any more problems.

Big Red's in Nebraska is the most expensive Franklin guy I know of.

Never had any spark plug problems except they don't last long because they have only one electrode just like an auto plug, not four like 18mm plugs. They are cheap though. He may have been using the auto type steel crush gaskets, I used copper only.

Yes, it does burn fuel. 9 - 10 gph for my 165 but it was so smooth it was worth it!!

Mike,
I have been plagued with sticking valves in my C-85 w 0200 conversion..It has the C-85 Cont. cylinders with 0200 pistons that were put on in 1999. The engine only has 250 hours on it but I'm beginning to have some distrust in when is the next valve gonna stick or is it gonna stick while airborne. The cylinders are chrome with standard 0200 pistons and I wonder if taking them off and sending them off to have valve seats and guides redone or look at new ECI's. Or just run it. Is the probablity high of having one stick or valve failure due to hot spot while flying once they start having morning sickness??? They have been stuck at the time I pull it through before starting so far? ANY FEEDBACK THAT MIGHT SAVE ME SOME BUCKS????