Chief vs Champ
Chief vs Champ
What are the pros and cons of each one, I know I am opening a can of worms but I wanted opinions. Thanks, Jim
Re: Chief vs Champ
Chief's are tight inside, visibility not all that great, control wheels, maybe a bit faster than a champ. Champ's are roomy and comfortable, have the more natural stick control, great visibility (to include over the nose), and a delightful plane to just have fun in.
Ok guys, feel free to chime in.
Mike
Ok guys, feel free to chime in.
Mike
Re: Chief vs Champ
Not hard to tell that Mike is a Champ owner is it? 
Both the Chief and Champ share 80% of the same parts in their construction. From the baggage compartment back its almost the same plane, and they use exactly the same rudder, elevator and so on. Exactly same wings, landing gear, engine and so on.
For some reason, no one knows why, the Chief is said to be 2-3 mph faster, or was in 1946 when they were built. Now being as old as they are its about the same.
The Chief will do the same thing that the Champ will do but they are about 20-30% cheaper. You can get a good Chief at times for $15-20k, while its usually going to cost you at least $20k minimum for a Champ. A very nice Champ will run upwards of $40k. Show quality Chief's are in the $25k range.
The Champ almost has a cult following and many people will not fly anything else. Its half the price of a J-3 Cub, yet more room inside, MUCH easier to get in and out of and you can fly from either front or back seat. The J-3 you have to fly from the back when solo. The Chief is a lot roomier than a Taylorcraft or Luscombe of the same era. All of them are going to fly on 3.5-4.5 gallons per hour and give you 85-90 mph or so.
The Champ pilots say that you can see better and that may be possible from the back seat, but from the front seat I cannot tell that much of a difference. After all, its the same wings mounted in the same position and so on. A lot of it depends on if you want to hold a stick in your hands or like a control wheel. Another thing to think of is if you want your passenger next to you or behind you. If your passenger is a lady friend, a Chief is nice and cozy and you are usually a lot friendlier when you land. A lot of people comment that they are not very excited as sitting in the back your view is that of the person in front and thats about it. The Chief the two people have the same view.
Hope this helps!
Joe A
Both the Chief and Champ share 80% of the same parts in their construction. From the baggage compartment back its almost the same plane, and they use exactly the same rudder, elevator and so on. Exactly same wings, landing gear, engine and so on.
For some reason, no one knows why, the Chief is said to be 2-3 mph faster, or was in 1946 when they were built. Now being as old as they are its about the same.
The Chief will do the same thing that the Champ will do but they are about 20-30% cheaper. You can get a good Chief at times for $15-20k, while its usually going to cost you at least $20k minimum for a Champ. A very nice Champ will run upwards of $40k. Show quality Chief's are in the $25k range.
The Champ almost has a cult following and many people will not fly anything else. Its half the price of a J-3 Cub, yet more room inside, MUCH easier to get in and out of and you can fly from either front or back seat. The J-3 you have to fly from the back when solo. The Chief is a lot roomier than a Taylorcraft or Luscombe of the same era. All of them are going to fly on 3.5-4.5 gallons per hour and give you 85-90 mph or so.
The Champ pilots say that you can see better and that may be possible from the back seat, but from the front seat I cannot tell that much of a difference. After all, its the same wings mounted in the same position and so on. A lot of it depends on if you want to hold a stick in your hands or like a control wheel. Another thing to think of is if you want your passenger next to you or behind you. If your passenger is a lady friend, a Chief is nice and cozy and you are usually a lot friendlier when you land. A lot of people comment that they are not very excited as sitting in the back your view is that of the person in front and thats about it. The Chief the two people have the same view.
Hope this helps!
Joe A
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flyingfool
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Re: Chief vs Champ
I soloed in the early 1980's in a Champ and love the stick and the tandem seating for just plane fun (no pun intended).
I however own a 11AC Chief. I bought it not quite 2 years ago. I like the less expensive initial buy-in cost. If not for this fact, I would likely still be LOOKING to buy an airplane, not OWNING and flying my own airplane! As stated above. At least when I was looking. Equivalent condition Chief's were about $5,000 less than a Champ. That 5 grand was the difference for my wife to "OK" buying the Chief. Also since it only burns 4 GPH and I can use ethanol free car gas it is not expensive to ACTUALLY fly. I know other people who have a nice plane (say a C-172) but don't want to burn 8 GPH and drag around 3 empty seats cause it's too expensive! So the plane sits a lot more than mine!
I like the aux fuel tank that is standard on the Chief. (although many if not most Champs have added an aux tank). I also really like being able to reach ANYTHING in the cockpit with the Chief. One person I know said that the aux tank "makes the airplane". As it really doesn't limit you on cross country's for range.
I can reach and get anything I want out of the baggage compartment and can set stuff on the seat next to me, or the lap of the person next to me. The Champ you have almost no place to set anything. Maybe a pocket in the door or side panel. You can not reach when flying up front the back seat or the baggage area.
I also like the Chief's TWO glove boxes. and two individual ear plug storage areas (originally they were ash tray's)
The Champ I find easier to get into and out of compared to the Chief. Although I was also 25 years younger and more flexible less belly when I flew the Champ compared to now! But the combination of the step and the easier to grab fuselage tubing behind the windshield seems easier for some reason.
I like that the Champ has brakes in both seat positions. Most Chiefs only have brakes on the pilot's side. Rear seat occupant/pilot can't fully see the panel in a Champ. Not a problem with a Chief.
I think the Chief is faster than the Champ due to the shape of the cockpit. The Champ is taller & the windshield is taller and some would say more visibility. However I believe this presents more drag. Both planes have to cut the same width more or less for the engine. The Chief has a shorter but wider windshield. It is also possible that the added width of the Chief means there is slightly more wingspan and the top of the fuselage does act as a bit of a wing and creates some lift. But speed is irrelevant with these planes. If you are interested in speed you would not be comparing Champ's & Chiefs!
I don't like the limited useful load in my Chief. Leaving you limited in fuel or accepting to fly overgross. Although I think I have a fairly heavy Chief (834 pounds empty). I bet a new cover job and conservative paint would save me 30 lbs or more.
I like that ALL 11AC's & 11BC's qualify as LSA. Some 7AC's have been converted, or "no bounce gear added and the gross weight increased, and that may put them outside of EVER qualifying as an LSA aircraft. If that is important to you make sure you are very careful looking over the aircraft paper work to ensure the Champ you buy qualify s for LSA.
I like BOTH because they are dirt simple and fun as H-E double hockey sticks! If you know an A&P you can easily work on these birds yourself due to their simplicity. Need a fuel line. Go down to the local True Value hardware store any buy some 3/8 copper tubing and brass compression fittings! Need a fuel gauge, go to the local antique car parts on-line store and for less than $40 you can get the entire new assembly or a rebuild kit for a measly $6. You can't get much cheaper ownership.
The only downside possibly is insurance. If you are a low time tailwheel pilot that can be a kick in the pants for the first year or so.
Hope this helps. Just my opinion and I'm sure you'll receive more that may or may not agree with mine.
Another thing, no matter what airplane you buy Aeronca or not. One motto that always comes back to me that I find spot on. "Buying and airplane is not for the faint of heart!"
Buying an airplane is an emotional thing. Enjoy it, But don't let your emotions totally lead you, you have to use your head. Get a good pre-buy inspection by someone YOU trust. Trust what they say, and be 100% prepared to walk away. Trust me. It is not easy. I walked away from my first plane I was "set" on buying after buying airline tickets for me and my IA from WI to FL. Only to take a look at the logbooks and walk away! Talk about heartbreaking. But it was the right thing to do. My Chief on the other hand everything has gone extremely well and I really couldn't be happier.
Final thought. Unless you hit the jackpot. You will NOT find the "PERFECT" airplane. There will ALWAYS be something you want to have different or better or improved or fixed or whatever. Look for the airplane that you know that over a few years you can financially achieve the airplane that YOU want it to be. My philosophy is that I try to do some sort of "improvement" at least in my own mind each year and go at it piecemeal!
Good luck,
TomD
I however own a 11AC Chief. I bought it not quite 2 years ago. I like the less expensive initial buy-in cost. If not for this fact, I would likely still be LOOKING to buy an airplane, not OWNING and flying my own airplane! As stated above. At least when I was looking. Equivalent condition Chief's were about $5,000 less than a Champ. That 5 grand was the difference for my wife to "OK" buying the Chief. Also since it only burns 4 GPH and I can use ethanol free car gas it is not expensive to ACTUALLY fly. I know other people who have a nice plane (say a C-172) but don't want to burn 8 GPH and drag around 3 empty seats cause it's too expensive! So the plane sits a lot more than mine!
I like the aux fuel tank that is standard on the Chief. (although many if not most Champs have added an aux tank). I also really like being able to reach ANYTHING in the cockpit with the Chief. One person I know said that the aux tank "makes the airplane". As it really doesn't limit you on cross country's for range.
I can reach and get anything I want out of the baggage compartment and can set stuff on the seat next to me, or the lap of the person next to me. The Champ you have almost no place to set anything. Maybe a pocket in the door or side panel. You can not reach when flying up front the back seat or the baggage area.
I also like the Chief's TWO glove boxes. and two individual ear plug storage areas (originally they were ash tray's)
The Champ I find easier to get into and out of compared to the Chief. Although I was also 25 years younger and more flexible less belly when I flew the Champ compared to now! But the combination of the step and the easier to grab fuselage tubing behind the windshield seems easier for some reason.
I like that the Champ has brakes in both seat positions. Most Chiefs only have brakes on the pilot's side. Rear seat occupant/pilot can't fully see the panel in a Champ. Not a problem with a Chief.
I think the Chief is faster than the Champ due to the shape of the cockpit. The Champ is taller & the windshield is taller and some would say more visibility. However I believe this presents more drag. Both planes have to cut the same width more or less for the engine. The Chief has a shorter but wider windshield. It is also possible that the added width of the Chief means there is slightly more wingspan and the top of the fuselage does act as a bit of a wing and creates some lift. But speed is irrelevant with these planes. If you are interested in speed you would not be comparing Champ's & Chiefs!
I don't like the limited useful load in my Chief. Leaving you limited in fuel or accepting to fly overgross. Although I think I have a fairly heavy Chief (834 pounds empty). I bet a new cover job and conservative paint would save me 30 lbs or more.
I like that ALL 11AC's & 11BC's qualify as LSA. Some 7AC's have been converted, or "no bounce gear added and the gross weight increased, and that may put them outside of EVER qualifying as an LSA aircraft. If that is important to you make sure you are very careful looking over the aircraft paper work to ensure the Champ you buy qualify s for LSA.
I like BOTH because they are dirt simple and fun as H-E double hockey sticks! If you know an A&P you can easily work on these birds yourself due to their simplicity. Need a fuel line. Go down to the local True Value hardware store any buy some 3/8 copper tubing and brass compression fittings! Need a fuel gauge, go to the local antique car parts on-line store and for less than $40 you can get the entire new assembly or a rebuild kit for a measly $6. You can't get much cheaper ownership.
The only downside possibly is insurance. If you are a low time tailwheel pilot that can be a kick in the pants for the first year or so.
Hope this helps. Just my opinion and I'm sure you'll receive more that may or may not agree with mine.
Another thing, no matter what airplane you buy Aeronca or not. One motto that always comes back to me that I find spot on. "Buying and airplane is not for the faint of heart!"
Buying an airplane is an emotional thing. Enjoy it, But don't let your emotions totally lead you, you have to use your head. Get a good pre-buy inspection by someone YOU trust. Trust what they say, and be 100% prepared to walk away. Trust me. It is not easy. I walked away from my first plane I was "set" on buying after buying airline tickets for me and my IA from WI to FL. Only to take a look at the logbooks and walk away! Talk about heartbreaking. But it was the right thing to do. My Chief on the other hand everything has gone extremely well and I really couldn't be happier.
Final thought. Unless you hit the jackpot. You will NOT find the "PERFECT" airplane. There will ALWAYS be something you want to have different or better or improved or fixed or whatever. Look for the airplane that you know that over a few years you can financially achieve the airplane that YOU want it to be. My philosophy is that I try to do some sort of "improvement" at least in my own mind each year and go at it piecemeal!
Good luck,
TomD
Re: Chief vs Champ
Tom makes a lot of good points. Even though I own a Champ and a L16 (project plane) I could be happy with a Chief. Part of the reason is ease of maintenance and less cost to operate on either model. As I've mentioned before, I owned a 1966 Cherokee 140 for over twenty five years. It was a great plane although not really a four placer. Over the years I made many improvements on it like copper battery cables, pulled the tanks and replaced fuel lines, upgraded the radios, auto fuel STC, rebuilt the mags, etc. However, I was getting to the point where I no longer was using it for anything other than airport hopping and at 8-9 gallons an hour I couldn't really justify owning it when I already had the Champ. So I sold it for considerably more than I paid for it. Do I miss it at times? You bet! Especially when it's on the same field and I have to look at it on a weekly basis. Also, it was a great cross country machine but I found it kind of unpractical without an instrument rating. So it largely depends on what you're going to use the plane for. Along with a Chief or Champ, I could be happy with a Taylorcraft or a Luscomb. I do like the tandem seating and a stick but that's just a preference on my part.
MikeB
MikeB
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flyingfool
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Re: Chief vs Champ
Nothing wrong with a Luscombe either. A true hybrid with side by side seating AND sticks.
Taylorcrafts are OK. Considerably faster than a Champ or even the "faster" Chief. A neighbor of mine has a T-Craft and he can cruise at about 100 to 105 mph. My Chief only seems to manage 83 mph. But T-crafts are harder to get into with that fuselage tube in the rear doorway.
You may find good prices on T-craft's right now as some people are spooked about the wing strut AD.
I have to beleive that a T-craft is a simple aircraft to work on also.
I just like Aeonca's!
Taylorcrafts are OK. Considerably faster than a Champ or even the "faster" Chief. A neighbor of mine has a T-Craft and he can cruise at about 100 to 105 mph. My Chief only seems to manage 83 mph. But T-crafts are harder to get into with that fuselage tube in the rear doorway.
You may find good prices on T-craft's right now as some people are spooked about the wing strut AD.
I have to beleive that a T-craft is a simple aircraft to work on also.
I just like Aeonca's!
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jc pacquin
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Re: Chief vs Champ
Chief, champ, T-craft.....damn tough to decide. All have great points! If you fly any of them I think your lucky!. .....Yes! Luscombe too! JP
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Rick Hadley
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Re: Chief vs Champ
It's hard to find a nice T-craft, at least compared to the availability of nice Chiefs around here. My first 15-20 hours and first solo were in a Luscombe 8F so I have a soft spot in my heart for them. I like the stick control better than the yoke, but I think a fabric airplane is easier to maintain than an old metal one which is one of the reasons I opted for the Chief.
Rick
11AC Chief
NC86196
11AC Chief
NC86196
Re: Chief vs Champ
I only have a short time in a 1959, 90 hp. Luscombe but I thought it was a nice flying plane. Tight, well balanced and fairly fast. The only problem came when we landed and the tail spring connector came apart from shaking..........made for a very exciting ride 
.
MikeB
.MikeB
Re: Chief vs Champ
I guess it's time for my two cents worth on this subject. I have a Champ and a Chief (also a Scout, but that doesn't count!) and have a lot of time in both. When I think about comparing them, it takes me back to when I was dating a girl who was an identical twin. She and her sister shared a lot of the same parts, but they could not be more different. One was easy to get along with and the other was a bitch. Of the two Aeroncas, guess which one was which. The girl I dated was a Champ, very pleasant, easy going and an all around perfect lady. But her sister ( the Chief ) had some sass to her. You couldn't tell it by looking at her, but she could turn on you in a heartbeat. I fell in love with the Champ, but always wanted a try at the Chief. I wonder what they are doing now after all these years!
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jc pacquin
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Re: Chief vs Champ
Some years back I knew an airline pilot who had a magnificent Luscombe F model. I think they were 90 hp. It was really NICE to fly although I only flew it for about 45 min. I had had a 65 hp Luscombe and there was no comparison. The F is really nice to fly and good looking. JC
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David Johnson
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Re: Chief vs Champ
Gentlemen, it's a moot point for us Normal size guys. You all are undersized. We don't fit in a Chief, Luscombe, or TCraft. Went to fly in a Tcart one time, couldn't move the controls at all. Called that one off. Have flown in a Luscombe, very good flying airplane with outstanding performance on 65hp. Chief was nice, but to do it again we need a Marriage Certificate. Note: I am only 6'3" and 285. And no, I am not the biggest in my family.....David J.
Re: Chief vs Champ
Can't do this in a Champ
Re: Chief vs Champ
Totally agree! In a Champ she would be hitting you over the head with a sectional saying "I cannot see a thing out front"...SFC Hiatt wrote: Can't do this in a Champ
Joe A
Re: Chief vs Champ
Well I did buy a Chief for the main reasons.....price and I wanted my wife to have a front seat too. I am happy with it so far. Thanks for all the replies. Jim
PS I am hoping to go to Middleton this summer..
PS I am hoping to go to Middleton this summer..