Missing log books

[7AC-JC]

Can anyone give me an idea of how much the value of a 7AC would drop without the log books being available.

The owner of the airplane I am interested in buying has died. The family is trying to find the log books but is having a difficult time.

I want to treat these good people fairly and was curious as what the result of the missing logs would be. At the same time I would want to protect myself in the distant future if I try to sell it to someone else after several years.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

-JC

[Paul Agaliotis]

JC,
You can re-create the books but it can be messy. Pull the CD from the FAA and it could give you some information if any repairs are on file. With out the logs the value is at least 30 percent lower. It would be in favor of the family to find the logs.
All of the AD's will need to be checked for compliance, all of the AD's,starting in 1946. This will add to the cost of the first Annual by a bunch. Once you have it straightened out the resale won't be a problem. Most of the Aeronca's out there have gaps in the logs.
Paul

[CptKelly]

Be sure to do a title search too.

Mike

[7AC-JC]

I had already purchased the CD from the FAA that has the airframe info on it. It was up to date.

There was nothing about the engine.

The new prop was installed in 2008. I wonder if the IA could produce something for that info.

The airplane is flyable but not in perfect condition by any means. Wings will eventually need to be recovered and painted to match the recent fuselage recover. So that is when all the AD's could be checked over.

Would the missing engine logs then be worth the same value as a new engine? Or a rebuilt engine?

Just trying to get a gauge to go by that seems fair to both of us.

[joea]

Is the airplane flying now? How about calling the airport where its based and talking to the FBO. Chances that the A&P there might have the logs...

[Larry]

30% Seems a little harsh to me. Might deduct some from the value or use the lack of complete records as a good bartering tool.

Check out FAR 91.417 (b) and you will see that "original log books" back to 1946 are not required. Only the past year or until the work is repeated. Many ways to come up with a good estimate on total time for the airframe and engine from FAA OKC files and other places.

An I.A. must inspect all past AD compliance and Form 337 repairs and alterations each year during the annual, by FAA requirements. So no extra work there.

I have purchased and rebuilt many airplanes (Cessna, Champion, Bellanca and Beech) plus a few military surplus aircraft that had incomplete or missing logs and records. One even missing the factory data plate. It can be done and it is not such a big deal.

Larry (ATP, A&P, I.A.)

[WWhunter]

I agree with Larry. My Champ only has recent logs. The plane was totally rebuilt and that is where the logs started. As far as I was concerned past logs weren't much more than good reading material. They do have additional value when buying a plane but that value is totally up to wht the purchaser "thinks" they are worth. As long as you have the CD and current logs I wouldn't worry too much about the missing logs. But then I am still old school and trust a guys word when I make a deal. Yep, it has come back and bit me in the butt....

WW

[joea]

Remember that you will have to pull the engine apart, landing gear apart and so on to confirm that the AD's and SB's have been done, so its going to be a bit of work.

Big thing for me is the data-tag (hopefully the original one and not a upgraded or fake one) and bill of sale and clean history with a title search.

[Larry]

Hey Joe...I don't see any AD that would require me to pull the engine or landing gear apart to confirm that it had been complied with at some previous date. Some common logic will prevail that an inspection required in 1947 must have been done by the deadline date, if the airplane has been in annual and flying in the past 60 years.

The FAA guidance material for I.A.'s says, "The holder of an IA is not expected to disassemble major components such as cylinders, crankcases, etc., to determine the status of previous inspections or modifications."

The SB's are not required to be done, except when they are called out in an AD. (Or unless you are operating under FAR 135 or 121.)

Larry
ATP, A&P, I.A.

[Paul Agaliotis]

Without the logs you don't know if it ever had any previous inspection or modifications. Someone would first need to make an entry containing conformity information. If that information was found to be fraudulent, there is a FAR that covers that too.
JC is buying an airplane from an estate with no first hand information or historical information. It would be worth far less than a licenced and flying aircraft.
Paul

[joea]

Larry,

I personally have seen Aeronca landing gear pulled apart and found the fiber piston inside that were supposed to be replaced in the late 1940's. Have had this happen several times and know of several others on this bulletin board who have seen this. In every case the AD had been signed off "PCW" or "previously complied with" when it had not been done.

If the logbooks are totally missing, every AD on the airplane would have to be checked if its going to have my signature in the logs releasing the airplane to service. You might use "common logic" and assume that the fiber piston inside the landing gear was done, but I cannot risk my A&P in that manner.

Depending on the engine it might not have to come apart, but at a minimum the cylinders would have to be checked for the rocker arm bosses, the piston pins, and carb venturi, all of which would have to come apart. Wing ribs and attach fittings, lift strut fittings and so on. 47-20-02 is the wonderful oleo piston that would require landing gear removal and disassembly.

I can 100% guarantee that if there was a mishap, and the FAA start diving into the records and find that any A&P/IA signed off the airplane and an AD was found that was not complied with, that they would start enforcement action. At least in my FSDO they would, "common sense" or not. I am told that you are either sure its complied with or not and if not then its not airworthy.

Joe A

[jc pacquin]

Easier solution: (unless of course, you like trouble.) Find another airplane! (I purchased an aircraft from up near you two years ago, a 7eca. I bought it at a very good price. The AI who did the ANNUAL assured me that it HAD NOT had a prop strike. Later: I sold the airplane to a fellow from Ohio. He said"The engine had started to have "problems". It was torn down by a pro who ascertained that IT HAD INDEED HAD a prop strike and the owner spent 24 thousand redoing the engine! The current owner related all this to the FAA, which he says will go back to the AI near you to try and arrive at the truth. (I sold it for what I paid for it and went LSA) I might add that the logs were there, it stated that the prop had been "overhauled" by East Coast Propeller but that was only because it was used for tailwheel instuction. (The seller was so sincere ,I went for this!) Moral of story, listen to people like Paul! They know what they are talking about! JP

[7AC-JC]

Does anyone have a "rough" idea how much the inspections for the ADs might cost.

Knowing this might give me a flavor as to how much room there should be in the negotiated price.

I do know the previous owner was flying this airplane up until he got sick and has only sat for maybe 8 months.

I will speak to his IA who might eventually become my IA but until then I am trying to gauge what my costs might be.

Any help appreciated and certainly not looking to hold anyone to their numbers. I am looking for a rough idea. Is this a $1000 bill? or $5000? More or less?

Thanks for all the feedback. I learn a lot from you guys. I appreciate it.

-JC

[CptKelly]

Do talk to the previous owners IA. I'm sure he will remember annualing that Champ. I'd ask him to start a new Aircraft/Engine log, since he will be doing the inspections from here on out. I can't imagine him not being cooperative in this. Since this IA did the previous annuals, he will know that all the AD's are complied with, and shouldn't have to do the inspections again. Let us know how things turn out.

Mike

[WWhunter]

Just a short comment on something JC said. Log books are just paper....what is written in them can be fact along with LOTS of things that may be left out because some past owner "didn't want to report it". I have seen this way to many times. I have actually been looking at a very low time RANS S7 that the owner assures me is in "like new" condition....never had any problems or issues. TT is 144 hrs. Well, there are many people that have told me that the plane was damaged in a landing incident and it DID have a prop strike. the owner replaced the prop and it was NOT annotated in the logs. He is trying to sell the plane for what he paid for it and some unsusspecting soul doesn't buy it and find out too late it had a prop strike.
Rotax quoted me $12,000 to tear down and repair this engine. Guess I'm rambling but all I am trying to say is that log books only contain things past owners wanted you to know about. as always...its a buyer beware issue when buying any plane.
WW