Vortex Generators - Part Deux

[Red(neck) Barron]

Any of you folks have any more recent experience with VG's on Champs that what is in that older 2005 posting? I saw where to get them, I'm more interested in real world feedback on improvemnt to your A/C's performance than actually the purchace or installation of them. That is unless you have a better source than Microaero. I've got a '46, 7AC with the mighty 90 Continental up front. Does a great job at getting me up, up and away but I might have an opportunity to aquire what's left of an abandoned airport, and what's left is only 1100' long. Fortunately it's flat on both ends with no obstrutions. Still I'll take all the edge I can get for landings.

[joea]

Have heard absolutely no negative comments, and everyone who I know who has used them was very happy with the decision to install them.

Wish they looked better and would put them on my plane. Just think that it takes the "classic" look away from the plane. In your case its a moot point as 1100 feet is short but VG's could help you a lot.

Joe A

PS Welcome on board !

[Captgrumps]

Without repeating they are everything that has been said, other than what Joe said about looks--but then you put them on for enhanced performance, not looks. The airplane does not stall, just mushes and you have aileron control until nearly stopped. I have them on my 1946 85hp Champ--If I was operatingfrom 1100' I would have them. I have 2200' with obstructions on both ends--no problem. 1100' with no obstruction should be a pieice of cake. Install them yourself--takes two people to do it best about 5 hours. I have put them on two airplanes.

[Red(neck) Barron]

I've seen them on lots of other types of planes and everyone I've talked to with them felt they were a good improvement for slow speed flight. However things don't always work as well for one type of plane as another. I tend to agree with you about the appearance aspect but then what's cooler than an old Champ showing the Cub drivers how it's done? Well, maybe not quite, but still............

What's really motivating me is that my plane is based 35 miles from my home and though it's on a nice airport that's a long ways away and I don't really need 4,000' of asphalt. Also I'm in snow country (Iowa) and I've got skis for the Champ. At my airport I don't have a good set up for them. This old 'port that I want to buy is the one that my Dad learned to fly at when I was young and later I did. I bought an interest in a Champ when I was 15 and soloed on my birthday week of my 16th. Runway was too wet on my birthday. Needless to say there is an intense sentimental value for that patch of grass as well as it being my personal 'Holy Land'. That and it's only 5 miles from my house. But I'm also retired and you know what that does to a fella's purchace considerations.

Well, thanks for visiting; not many pilots left around here to talk planes with anymore, especially the old ones. All the young ones are more interested in the electronic wizardry in the panel than they are the plane itself. Sad, huh?

[WWhunter]

Depends on what you call young??? I am 50 and I HATE all that electronic wizadry!!! Give me something with wings and an engine and I am fine. I have a 1000' foot strip in the forest...ie..surrounded by trees and I landed my Champ on this strip with around 10-12 hours TW time. I got this time in the Champ I bought and landed it at home soon after I recieved my TW endorsement. Granted I have more HP (O-235) but have had 3 other guys land here with 85-90HP Champs. What I am saying is 1,000' is plenty for the Champ. Oh, mine has VG's and as Grumps stated, the plane doesn't really stall with them on...just mushes along. I have never flown a Champ without them but I am pleased at how my Champ handles. Still dreaming about better brakes though. But that is another discussion.
WW

[Red(neck) Barron]

Ooops; My bad! I didn't write my sentence very clearly. When I referred to 'old ones', I was thinking about airplanes, not the pilots. But hey; old pilots are cool to talk to also. Some of them have forgotten more than I ever knew. But then again I'm not too sure about that since I don't really remember either. Good to have a simple plane, gas and mags on and go.

[WWhunter]

Where are you in SE Iowa? I get down that way once in awhile. My son's girlfriend is from Iowa city so we have flown there to visit a few times.
I have a strip near Itasca State Park, MN and if you are up this way you are welcome to stop in. 1,000' grass with a recent extension of 800' of dirt. Not sure I would want to venture too far on the dirt part just yet though. I'm not quite finished with it due to all the rain here.
WW

[Captgrumps]

Do you ever fly over to Blakesburg? It is in SE Iowa.

[Red(neck) Barron]

WW: The Champ is based in Washington, just a little south of Iowa City. If you fly to Iowa City it would be worth your trip to go the extra 25 miles south just for fuel. Save about a buck a gallon.

And if the Champ should ever wander that far away from home I'll be sure to try out your strip. I've been in that area before and it is pretty country. The Champ (whom I lovingly call
The Devine Sixty-nine should know her way around there since she spent time in that country. I bought it from a fellow in Northen Wisconsin, he had gotten it from Minnesota.


Grumps: Yes I've been to Blakesburg but not in the Champ. It's not far from where I live either. Buddy of mine is a memeber down there and goes to the Labor Day fly in. I haven't yet. I used to go when the Antique Aircraft Assn. was a big deal and held in Ottumwa. Back then it was bigger than the EAA by far and could have been what the EAA became except for some personallity issues.

[Paul Agaliotis]

The Champ with a 90 will operate out of a 1100ft strip without VG's. The guys that have them are going to like them,after spending the cash for them few will say their not worth it. The Champ is controlable to the stall and the VG's lower the stall speed, I guess. I don't see any advantage to lowering the stall speed from 44MPH to 35MPH. If you need to go slow buy a Super Cub.
I have been a member of both the EAA and AAA. I still belong to the AAA. The AAA has been true to its motto," Keep them Flying". The EAA is too busy selling John Deere tractors or Honda's to give a crap about it's membership. If you don't want to spend 100K for some plastic speeder with 60K in avionics stay away from the EAA. The last antique they featured before I quit was a 1958 Cessna 182, a dammed 182. They choose to overlook the Emigh, Rawdon and any number of legitimate antiques. So, enjoy your 182's and Cherokee 140's antiques EAA, you're just not for me.
Paul

[Senior]

Well I can't comment on VGs on a Chief, but I can see a great use for them. Maybe not for you guys down in flatland country where even grass strips are 2,000' or more, but I fly a 65 Chief out of 1,100' with trees on both ends, almost always 2 people. Flying slow has it's benifits on short fields & 1940s era brakes
My almost complete project will have them. I noticed on Barnstormers a BC for sale from a fairly famous old flyer guy, with VGs. So I E-mailed him for an honest evaluation. I will not quote his name but here is his reply

"Hi Randy,
I think that VG,s give the biggest bang for the buck, it's like having 10 more
hp. with lots of slow speed stability. Some airplanes don't show a great
difference in short field take offs and landings but we noticed
it on our BC12D, my son and I both weigh over 220 lbs. All 100 + of them have
stayed on. Power on stalls are almost impossible she just hangs there no tendency to drop a wing.

Love them,
PS the stall speed gets to around 32-35 solo just like a prewar Cub.
xxxxxxxxxx

[rkittine]

I put Vortex Generators on my Chief after adding EDO 80-1400 Floats. The SLIGHT loss in airspeed was for sure made up in slow flight handling, especially when trying to get off the water with two fuys on board. Slips are much more percises and I love them. I have a C-85-12 in the Chief with the Don's Dream Machine 0-200 parts conversion.
When I bought my 7CCM Champ (C-90-8) to stay on wheels, the first add on was the Vortex Generators. The plane mushes and doesn't really stall and lows to slip. The kit with STC is $695.00 and I think $100 or $150 if you want them custom pre-painted. I paid someone to install them and the who cost with painting and installation was about $1,350.00. To me is is worth it. I will put these on any plane that I own in the future that is approved for them.

Regards, Robert

[Red(neck) Barron]

Well, I did it. The VG's arrived yesterday and they are now downstairs getting painted. The Champ is down for annual now so hopefully, while it is in the heated shop I'll have time to get them on. Also got a new AP tailwheel from Aviation Products and a shoulder harness from Wag-Aero. Looking forward to the changes to the plane. Now I'm starting to eye those Alaska bush wheels. Well, maybe not, those things are pricy!!!

I'll give a before and after report as soon as I get a chance.

[rkittine]

Larry, Do you have a wing tank on your Champ? I had some issues with the cap venting after the Vortex Generators were installed and ended up adding a raised, forward facing vent tube to the cap on the wing tank. - I bet you will love the Vortex Generators and they do add a little to the High Tech Look of the wing. My first experience with them was on my RAM conversion and addition of the generators to my C-340A. Sure made a difference on that plane. Good Luck - Robert

[WWhunter]

Larry, Oh yes those tires are 'spendy' but worth every penny. Once you land with a set you'll wonder why you didn't start saving money for them a long time ago. If you only fly off maintained grass strips I wouldn't bother but for anything rougher they are definitely worth it. Heck, these old planes have seem many years of abuse and some squishier tires probably feels good to that achy old arthritic airframe.
I may be selling my 26" AkBushwheels this summer if you are interested. Haven't decided yet but I want to get the 29" and give them a try.
Keith