National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

I flew a Luscombe for several years, and when I needed to lose some altitude on final, I would just slip it with the nose up, and it dropped right in. That is the way I was taught, and never had any problem. Fast forward 12 years, and after not flying(house, wife, kids, etc.) for a while, I start to fly a Champ. On my checkout with the same instructor from my Luscombe days, I start to slip with the nose up on final. He tells me I should have the nose down, and that he at some point learned that nose up slips can be dangerous. I can't find any good information on slips. Which is the proper method?

I was taught that slips with the nose level or down are safer because if you stall in a slip (cross-controlled), things get real hairy, real fast. But that being said, you slow down a lot more with the nose slightly high, so as long as you don't slip it all the way into a stall...

The hard part about slips for me was always making sure the throttle was closed first... Just felt strange to cut the power all the way, but even a little throttle makes a difference if you are trying to get it slow.

Good luck!

Bob K.
Anchorage, AK

Here is my thought. I assume you fly a tight approach so that, if the engine falters or quits, you are assured a landing on the airport. That is a good idea. I would pick a target airspeed for the approach, knowing that you are going to use a forward slip (for instance, let's say you choose 55 mph); then execute the slip at that target airspeed. Where the nose ends up is of little consequence to me as long as you are at the target airspeed. If you get a little slow, drop the nose; if you get a little fast; raise the nose. It should be that simple. Then when you have the airport made, eliminate the slip and make a normal approach to a landing.

In support of the post about Hairy Conditions in a Cross Controlled Stall, I have always taught slips with the nose down and higher than the normal approach spead. Though I might use 55 for final approach in my 7CCM, I use about 70 or so when slipping to a landing. The speed drops right off when you come out of the slip and transition to the landing. 50 Years ago my first instructor (I P-40 pilot in WWII) had me do a Cross Controled Power On Stall. I almost gave up flying as I was 12 years old at the time, but I did learn about the Split S. It made me a finatic about keeping the speed up if the ball is not in the center.

Because our field is fairly short with wires and trees on one end, I almost always wind up slipping on final. Basically I try to use about 60 on the airspeed and I guess I don't pay too much attention where the nose is but I'd guess it's more or less slightly down. Seems to work anyway. It does need to be less than 60 on the final/final or it will pretty much bounce every time.

MikeB

It depend son which way you're slipping.

In my Chief the pitot is mounted on the left strut brace. Slipping left side first (which most pilots do since it's easier from the left side), the pitot is still in fairly unobstructed air stream.

No so when slipping right.

I'm in the "Add a few MPH when slipping" camp. It gets really slow real fast, and with wandering attention the speed can decay very quickly.

In addition, drag increases with airspeed. The point of slipping is to increase drag. Why not slip fast and increase the overall drag and thereby steepen the approach?

The proper question you have to ask is not if you should nose up or down, but what are the new stall characteristics of an Airknocker in a full slip configuration. If you have never stalled a plane in a full slip, you have no idea what can happen. The time to find out is not at 75 feet on final.

Your airspeed is determined by attitude. Fly 55-60 and see where your nose attitude is. As you pull the slip out you can reduce airspeed.

I always fly the pattern with extra energy. I was always taught that you should always be able to make the field once you're in the pattern. Just cause you followed a cessna 150 doing an American Airlines approach is no excuse. The slip allows you to carry this extra energy.

By the way, a Pre-War Chief glides better than a Baby Lakes!

Just to stir up the Champ/Chief debate I have to pass on something that was told me when I was a young pup with my '39 65-C. An Old Guy (aka OF) told me that when I had a cute gal with me, to carry just a touch of right wing down. Not really enough for a new passenger to notice. But the effect... they will cuddle up to you like butter on bread!!!! The fact that the Pre-Wars had fabric doors helped a bunch too. I never had a chance to thank that man!!!

Happy Flying!!
Craig

Craig is right on. Go up high and try the stall from a slip. I always found it was not a problem. The real problem comes when you stall out of a skid(bottom rudder), not the other way around. Whole different result. You guys go try it and give us a report. David J.

David Johnson wrote:Craig is right on. Go up high and try the stall from a slip. I always found it was not a problem. The real problem comes when you stall out of a skid(bottom rudder), not the other way around. Whole different result. You guys go try it and give us a report. David J.

I invite the same thing. I've said this numerous times, for ME and the Aeroncas I've had and others I've flown, they will not stall in a full slip. If you are slipping the plane and bring the stick/wheel slowly back, all that will happen is the plane will begin to turn in the direction of the slip. You will be able to have the stick/wheel fully back, plane buffeting slightly, slowly turning...not stalling or loss of control. Go up to altitude and try for yourself. However, a skidding stall is another thing entirely. The plane will stall very abruptly and snap over opposite direction of the turn, not something you want to have happen on base to final turn. Don't skid a turn to final.

I usually fly the pattern at 70 and try to stay as close in as possible. Turning final, I throttle back (600 ft?) and cross the controls, into a nice slip , into the cross wind, nose DOWN. It quickly loses altitude and speed. I either continue this to maybe 10 feet off the ground, or, at 30 feet I pull the nose up, still in the slip, to bleed off excess speed, then straighten it out just above the run way. I could make a longer final and not slip it at all, but its fun to do and good practice for a forced landing. JP

JC
I follow your description. You fly the pattern at 70. But when you throttle back and start to slip into the crosswind, you did mention that you lose altitude and airspeed, but did not mention what airspeed you use throughout the slip. That would help.

Probably not going to say anything new here but I'll give you my version.
First; it's all about safety, it's ALWAYS all about safety. If you screw up high in the sky you can usually get it all back together before you run into some cumulogranite with no more damage than a pinch mark in the drivers seat. Down low is a whole 'nuther issue. Aircraft control is the issue. Often time, when I'm forced into a slip I consider it a go-around waiting to happen, and I won't let it wait too long. Oh, and I wouldn't have been forced into a slip condition if I would have flown the pattern better to begin with.

So when flying the approach remember, the throttle controls the altitude / sink rate; the pitch controls the airspeed. The nose will be where the nose will be. Any crosswind, the upwind wing is low, otherwise pick your favorite. I might be flying mine a tad bit hot but I usually keep 70 until short final where I drop back to 60. In a slip I make sure the A/S indicator is showing at least that much. I like a little fudge factor just in case what I'm seeing on the dial isn't exactly 100% accurate. These things are kinda old you know. Don't hold that slip down to the runway either since I'm sure you know that when you kick out of the slip the old Airknockers are still going downhill at a pretty good clip. You need a little altitude to be able to check that decent and have sufficent energy for the flair. And if your slipping hard be ready to throttle up in an instant and give up on the approach in favor of a go-around and another shot. That's the old 'Live to fight another day' attitude.

If you can, go to an airport that isn't busy and practice this. Fly a 600' AGL pattern just like normal; then opposite the end of the runway on downwind pull power to idle and try to stick it just past the 'fence' with out adding power. Practice that until you can do it consistantly and you will not be using slips as often and it will give you a lot more confidence in the event the ponies up front ever lay down on you. I do give a shot of throttle on base just to clear the engine. I want it to run if I need it to run. I've always had the attitude that once you are in the pattern you should never be in a position that you can't land on the runway if you experience total power loss. In these types of planes it would just be plain embarrassing.

Hope I haven't messed up anybody's karma too badly.

Actually, when I learned to fly many years ago, in an Aeronca, both C3s and Champs, everyone was taught that you always throttle to idle abeam the numbers, clear once on base, and otherwise always just glide to the landing spot. That is the only way I ever did it, in the smaller planes, until the last couple of years. Now it seems that the standard way taught now is holding some power throughout the approach to landing. Nobody glides to a landing anymore it seems. I have now begun doing the same usually, holding 1200 to 1500 rpm until throttling back as needed. I guess it is better for the engine and does prevent loading up. Holding power throughout is one of the reasons that everyone seems to fly such wide patterns now. But that does seem to be the standard taught now.

It is interesting how times change. I still teach my primary students the way that I learned. A NORMAL Landing is Power off Abeam the numbers and no flaps (assuming you have some). Short Field is Flaps and power as needed and if no flaps then slips and power when and as needed, along with the norm of clearing the engine.

It is amazine how many biennials that I do that when I ask the pilot to land with zero flaps, they look at me like I am nuts.

Being able to make the runway from any spot in the pattern if the engine quits is just good safe sense.

rkittine wrote:It is amazine how many biennials that I do that when I ask the pilot to land with zero flaps, they look at me like I am nuts.

Yes, the flap thing. Even in C150s and C172s, Tri Pacers, etc, the norm was that flaps were only as needed and I seldom used them for a normal landing. However, now as you say, to a present pilot or student, a no flap landing is close to an emergency situation. I was out in a C150 recently with the owner, a retired F111 driver. We were in the pattern, me right seat. I asked if I could take it around the patch one time. I came around and without even thinking about it made the approach no flap. On short final he said somewhat excited, "you're not going to use the flaps?". It caught me by surprise that he would ask. I said I wasn't if it was OK with him. He said " I guess so" but with uncertainty if we would live through it I think.