Landing issues, any advice?

[NC86036]

I am experiencing issues with my 11ac Chief on landing on hard surface. On grass, obviously it is a dream to land, but when touching down 3 point on hard surface it is all over the place. Wheel landings are a little better and I have more control. On wheel landings once the plane is stablilzed on the centerline, the tail settling is fine, and roll out after tail settling is easily managable. But on 3 point I have to use brake and rudder to keep it on the runway.

I'm not sure if it is something I am doing or if it is something with the plane, or a combination of both. I am a new tailwheel pilot, just got my endorsement just a few hrs ago. Durring my tailwheel training, I had a tailwheel spring failure and sent me off the runway into a ditch ruffling my tailfeathers. After rebuild of tail feathers and replacement of tail spring and steer springs (compression type), the plane was inspected by my A&P AI and we were back in the air. The tires were replaced just before training began, and are now feathered and near bald. The left tire is more worn than the right.

My instructor and I did ALOT of high speed taxies up and down the 6000' runway to learn control before going airborne. I'm thinking that had alot to do with early wear on the tires, but That much? The plane has damage history from the early 60's where a student pilot sent it through a fence at the end of the runway, and landing gear was replaced, among other items. I was thinking of possible Oleo wear causing a problem, but there is no noticable wing sag when parked and when I rock the wings from either side, it seems firm, not sloppy.

I spoke with my A&P today and he told me to remove and inspect all landing gear attach bolts for odd wear, and to inspect the bushings. He said that a slightly worn bolt can cause excessive sqirreliness on hard surface. I checked the tire pressure today and found my left tire was at 25 psi and the right was at 20. Could that cause an issue? I backed them down to the recommended 14psi but it is too windy today to go up and test it. The tires are in need of replacing due to the wear and flat spotting, so I will order them today.

I dont have time or the supports to pull the bolts on the gear legs today, hopefully this weekend I can. I did clamp some straight edge aluminum bars to the outside of each wheel to get an exaggerated view of the toe-in on the wheels, and they visually look even, but I have no basis to measure.

I know I'm shooting in the dark hear, but anyone run into a simmilar issue and find a solution? Any advice on what else to check and how to check it? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm still very new and want to do it right.

Thanks in advance

[RickH]

You've done the first, best step. Getting those tires down into the 12-14 range made all the difference in the way my Chief handled on hard surface. Give that a try and then report back. I doubt I could keep mine on the pavement with 20 in one and 25 in the other. That said, in any taildragger you're going to have to stay on the rudders all the time you're in motion on the ground.

[seaheli]

"Relax" , wiggle your toe's! The instructor that taught me to fly Luscombe's made me wiggle my toe's on final approach.

Charles

[CptKelly]

It seems to me that you must have some kind of landing gear misalignment issue, as those new tires should last years and years, even on pavement. Worn bolts may contribute to that issue, but I would guess that at least one of your gear is bent or twisted. Have your IA check the landing gear alignment, and repair as necessary.

Mike

[jc pacquin]

I use 18lbs. I think others are correct in that you have too much air in tires for hard surface. The wear on the tires is troubling. They usually last A LONG TIME! Must be alignment or your using the brakes FAR too much! (OR BOTH!) Trim it way back on downwind, approach over the fence at 55-60, then let it plop onto the runway, when it runs out of lift. Eventually you'll get it right. You should only need to stab at the brakes very little on roll out, if at all, depending of course on cross wind at the time. If you get the air pressure too low, you may roll the tire off the rim. Below 15 is too low I think. (humble opinion.) JP

[Champ99b]

Just a thought but how much stick forward do you use on take off? When I was learning I used a lot of stick forward and it put a lot of pressure on the mains and tires and they wore fast. After a lot of pratice I started using a very little stick forward and my tires have lasted about 5 years. I think I tried to get the tail wheel up to fast instead of letting it come up when it was ready. A concret runway is alot worse than an asfault one.

If anyone has any ideas about this let me hear from you.

Just a thought

Ron Clark

[flyboy1964]

I agree with jc. I don't have to touch the brakes on landing and hardly even touch the rudder pedels on rollout. I have a feeling you are trying to give it way to much input. But as others have said you will have to try different things until you get your nack down.

[lowflyer]

Sounds like an alignment issue. The air pressure change can't hurt either. I would check alignment in every way possible.... Toe in (or out), triangulate it with a point at the tail or nose or both. Something is definitely not lining up.

If your alignment is off by too much even low speed taxi could be scrubbing off your tires.

Let us know what you find.....

Josh

[rkittine]

Sounds like a lot of good advise. On three point landings, I teach my students "Fast Stick" - That is, as soon as the plane touches down, I plant the tailwheel by using fulll back stick (Champ) or Wheel (Chief). I also teach Bicycling (pedalling back and forth with little inputs) to the rudder pedals in order to keep going straight.

I run 18 pounds of pressure or less in my Aeronca's wheels which seems to help, but I try to only use brakes if absolutely necessary, especially with my mechanical heal brakes.

Ciao

[schror1]

You said you've had good luck operating on turf. That makes me think that your landing gear isn't as screwy as you suspect. Maybe if you shot five or so hours worth of landings on a grass strip, landing on paved surfaces would come a little easier. Still different and not as much fun, but easier.

Some of the happiest times I've had in my Champ - and pretty much in my life -- have been when I've stayed in the pattern of a grass strip and shot landing after landing after landing. A stiff wind straight down the runway is icing on the cake. Keep your pattern tight and you might squeeze nine or ten landings into an hour.

Try this and get your tire pressure within spec and see what happens.

Ron
KSYN - Minneapolis
N2488E

[hammmike]

I am still not a great tailwheel pilot but after two years but my problem was overcorrecting when I put in a rudder input. I had a hard time figuring out that sometimes you do not need any corrections. Just hold the rudder straight. Small rudder inputs most of the time are all that is nessasary .And I still do not like to land on paved runaways in a crosswind. I fly off a grass strip all the time,so I guess that helps.

[RickH]

Rereading the original post makes me wonder if you're not inadvertently getting on the brakes as you touch down. That could account for the unusual tire wear. Make sure your heels are on the floor until you're really ready to apply them. You really shouldn't need them until you're ready to come to a stop.

[CptKelly]

As far as needing brakes on landing, I used to own a Cessna 170B. It was the meanest tailwheel on the ground that I ever encountered. I did all sorts of alignment testing, and nothing was bent. If you didn't have brakes on the 170, you would be in real trouble. Even that said, my tires lasted more than 10 years. The tires came on the 170 when I bought it, and I sold it with the same tires, and they looked quite good. I flew that bird more than 1000 hours.
I have had a Experimental Supercub since it was new in 2005. It has 8:50's. Tires look like new. Gails Champ's tires look like new too. Aircraft tires typically last quite a long time.
My point is, that unless a misalignment is present, I don't see how anyone could wear out tires in such a short time. Having a bent or misaligned landing gear is fairly common, so have it checked by a competent mechanic.

Mike

[Roger Anderson]

Tire pressure 11 - 14 lbs, no more. Number one advice for tailwheel landing three point ( full stall), STICK IN YOUR LAP as you plunk down (or for Chief, wheel in your lap). That means ALL the way back and hold it there. On a Chief it fools you. You think you have it all the way back but usually have several more inches of travel available. And those last several inches make a big difference in up elevator. For tires, just get the cheaper ones, Air Tracs or similar, about 50 bucks each. I make several years worth of my usual bad landings before they wear out. Yes...lots of rudder wiggling needed during most landings. Seldom do you just get to roll out straight ahead. Keep the feet active. Chief brakes are usually in my way on landing. On downwind I make a concious effort to get my feet up on the rudder pedals so my heels don't unintentionally mash the brake pedals during landing. Do check axle alignment. I've never had athe problem, but hear that toe in (or is it toe out) can make the Aeronca super squirrly.

[jimknuck]

I had the same problem when I started flying my Chief. I would touch down and it would go wherever it wanted to. I checked my main gear and both springs were worn and shorter than when new. The left strut would only move about an inch ant the right one was spongy. Also the lower bushing was worn allowing the right main to wiggle back and forth. I rebuilt the struts, replaced the bushings and also replaced my tailwheel springs. When I flew it the first time it it would actually go where I pointed it. I thought it was me at first but learned it wasn't. Raise each side and check the oleo strut oil also. Thanks, Jim