PRE BUY

[flybwg]

I just purchased a 1958 7ec I had a pre buy inspection done and the plane passed no problems. Part of the purchase agreemant was a fresh annual the plane also passed no problems. On the trip home the wing fabric tore so I had a local a&p IA inspect the fabric on the wings and fuselage and the fabric on the wings failed. Do you just bite the bullitt and fix the plane or do you go after the IA that signed off on the annual.

Thanks

Greg

[Lostdutchman]

Where did the fabric tear? I had a fabric issue with my plane as well. I tested the fabric and it tested fine. It was a installation problem as far as I can tell. I can't fault the IA as the fabric tested good. I would ask the IA if he did a fabric test, and where he did it on the airplane. What did your fabric test out at? If the fabric grossly failed the test and other parts of the fabric also grossly failed then you might be able to go after the IA but if it is anywhere close, and the IA said he did the test and it passed it will probably be cheaper to bite the bullet and recover.

[Mikek]

I just purchased a 1958 7ec I had a pre buy inspection done and the plane passed no problems. ----------a fresh annual the plane also passed no problems.

Most Aeronca's have been recovered aleast once, what type of fabric and how long ago?
Today's and even yesterday's materials last for a long time, the tubing / wood usually go first if the fence doesn"t get if first.

Who did the pre-buy?

Who did the annual?

I hope that the above person or people were one's that you know and not yourself or the owner. There is not much you can do without a $$ fight, but if you paid top $$ and wanted one that you can fly now, you have limited options. The reason I say yourself is that you most likely just want it and would overlook many things.

1. Have a place and talent to recover, do it.

2. Sell it as a project and use the $$ on another one but know what went wrong with this deal.

3.

[Red(neck) Barron]

Man that would steam a fellow. I don't know what recourse you may have but I would most certainly get a thorough fabric test done and record numbers by a reputable A&E or AI then go have a vist with the A&E who passed the prebuy and the AI who signed off the annual to see what they thought they saw. It might pay to consult an aviation attorney also. Another factor would be the price you paid for the plane; i.e. was it priced like it was in good shape or no, the previous owner might have misrepresented the plane. You might be stuck on this but I would sure try to scare them a little and see what shakes loose.

Cool down first and then take your time getting your facts together, it will give you your best opportunity for some kind of compensation. If all fails then just look at the bright side, you will have an opportunity to check out the condition of the wings and get some new skin on her. Sadly, these kinds of things happen in many transactions of many different items. Even if you do take reasonable and normal precautions to insure you know what you are buying.

I hate to hear these kind of stories; good luck to you.

[N86250]

I know of a 1972 ACA that has since been recovered, but when it was presented for inspection 3 years ago, it was a quandary. It still had the factory's cover on it. It looked like crap. You could see many pinholes of light inside the fuselage because the original silver and finish coats were so thin. It tested good, at first, with a Maule tester. Then a thumb went through the fabric on a stabilizer by accident. Two inches away it tested good as new. It had been poked in dozens and dozens of places with the the Maule tester, searching for a weak spot, and had it not been for the coincidence of a thumb finding the bad spot when pushing the airplane back, I'm sure it would have been passed for annual. It was eventually sold as a project. Duct tape over the hole and, right or wrong, it flew away to a new home.
By the way, was the IA who did the annual influenced by the glowing prebuy inspection or did the same guy do both? I am not a fan of prebuys as they are not addressed in the FARs and I would expect they carry no significance with the FAA. jrh

[Holcombe]

What kid of insurance have you got. Might be worth a call, and let them be the bad guys.
When I bought my 7CCM the engine had a four year old C-90 top end, but turned out to have a C-85 crank and cam. Go figure. Short throw crank and low compression pistons gave a nice smooth 65 hp.
I bit the bullet and had it rebuilt properly. Fresh strong engine...Priceless.

[MikeB]

As I've posted on this site before, I bought a 'rebuilt to new specifications' engine by an IA out east. Had low compression on two cylinders and when I pulled the jugs I found what appeared to be standard rings in .015 over holes and pistons (judging by the ring gap) even though the pistons were marked .015 on top. Plus, the rebuild log said "checked all ring gaps". Also, "everything miked to standard specifications". When I called the guy he was pretty evasive about the whole thing and not much satisfaction so I gave up on the situation and installed a couple of rebuilt cylinders. Kind of makes me wonder about the other two but so far they check out. Anyway, from now I'm only trusting myself......at least I know who to blame .

MikeB

[Champ Dreamer]

"Tested Fabric" as a log entry is a rather vague comment. It is my understanding that the Maule tester is useful, but not an official fabric test. Properly done, a true fabric test (so I have been told) requires that a swatch of fabric be removed, have the dope and paint removed by solvent, then the fabric is tested to destruction. The force required to tear it determines it's condition. I suspect that, unless you asked the IA to perform such a test, you probably wouldn't have a case. Also, consider wether the guy who condemned it might be looking to creat a little work for himself. To me, the most important thing about a prebuy is the history of the airplane. When was it last covered, with what and by whom? If it's 40 year old cotton installed by the owner, I could care less what the pre-buy A&P says, I would figure a re-cover job into the purchase price. Also, where has the airplane been stored..indoors or out? If worse comes to worse, I would encourage you to recover it yourself. I just finished mine and found it to be a much easier project than I originally imagined. Satisfying and fairly in-expensive too.

I believe the details reagrding fabric testing are in 43-13

Brian Walker
7AC/DC NC1197E

[Holcombe]

Find the plane you want, then make it the plane you want.
All to often that is the story, but it ends well because then you have a plane you know and trust.

[jc pacquin]

Champ Dreamer is correct. IF it is Ceconite type fabric, the maule tester is not approved but should give a good indication if pushed to about 46. The stretch test I've been told is the correct way. Bill Pancake, the guru of this type restoration knows a whole lot better than I the ins and outs. You might want to call him. JP

[jmurray]

Fly,

Because I handle these types of cases for a living, I thought I'd give you the benefit of my experience in this area. There are several legal issues which will affect your ability to recover against the mechanic who negligently performed your pre-buy. First, did you hire him? If not, he may not have a legal duty to you. If you did hire him, is he located in your jurisdiction? If not, you may have to sue him outside your local area, because you will have to sue him where he lives or works. Also, there is almost always no insurance coverage available to mechanics who perform pre-buy inspections, since there is no "occurrence" under the terms of their liability insurance policy. Your policy will likely exclude "normal wear and tear" and would not be available either.

If you decide to litigate against the mechanic, you need to carefully consider the costs which will be involved in such a suit. Even though you may be able to sue in small claims court and handle the case yourself, you will need to hire expert witnesses to testify that the inspection was negligently done. Experts are generally more costly than lawyers. Usually, even if you win, you will not be able to recover attorneys fees or costs associated with the case.

My suggestion is that you go back to the seller and mechanic, advise them of the problems you encountered and try to work out a settlement with them. You probably won't get full satisfaction, but you may be able to recover some of the costs of repair. (I've always felt that a good settlement is one in which both parties leave unhappy.)

In sum, the cost of litigating a matter like this will normally far exceed the amount of damages you would be able to recover.

Good luck with this unfortunate matter.

[Captgrumps]

Gentlemen you should do your OWN prebuy or suffer the conquences. In my years of buying my airplanes I always made a trip to the airplane regardless of where it was and made my own decisions. If someone called me to do a prebuy, I would not do it--would not do it for my mother if she asked(God Bless her soul). If you are not familar with the airplane--take a mechanic you can trust, pay him/her and take them along with you. Having someone do a prebuy at a distance is like buying a stock from a tip at the local gas station. But then how many have paid a mechanic to do a prebuy on a used car? Life is full of learning experiences.

Doug

[SFC Hiatt]

Fly,

Because I handle these types of cases for a living, I thought I'd give you the benefit of my experience in this area. There are several legal issues which will affect your ability to recover against the mechanic who negligently performed your pre-buy. First, did you hire him? If not, he may not have a legal duty to you. If you did hire him, is he located in your jurisdiction? If not, you may have to sue him outside your local area, because you will have to sue him where he lives or works. Also, there is almost always no insurance coverage available to mechanics who perform pre-buy inspections, since there is no "occurrence" under the terms of their liability insurance policy. Your policy will likely exclude "normal wear and tear" and would not be available either.

If you decide to litigate against the mechanic, you need to carefully consider the costs which will be involved in such a suit. Even though you may be able to sue in small claims court and handle the case yourself, you will need to hire expert witnesses to testify that the inspection was negligently done. Experts are generally more costly than lawyers. Usually, even if you win, you will not be able to recover attorneys fees or costs associated with the case.

My suggestion is that you go back to the seller and mechanic, advise them of the problems you encountered and try to work out a settlement with them. You probably won't get full satisfaction, but you may be able to recover some of the costs of repair. (I've always felt that a good settlement is one in which both parties leave unhappy.)

In sum, the cost of litigating a matter like this will normally far exceed the amount of damages you would be able to recover.

Good luck with this unfortunate matter.

Thanks, that's some good information that I didn't know.

Chris

[joea]

Greg,

I would contact the seller and person who did the "inspection" for you.

Offer to them to either have them chip in for the cost and labor of recovering the defective fabric or you will take your case to your local FAA office as well as to a lawyer.

The A&P/IA who did this and "looked the other way" when signing off bad fabric probably does not want to get violated and same with the seller.

I would contact them and present my case and give them an option of doing this and see what happens. In the end considering the cost and time of this they need to chip in and make things right for you.

Joe A

[flybwg]

Thanks for all your help.

Glad to let every one know there are still some good honest people out there. I contacted the seller and the IA about the wing fabric and the seller is going to take care of the wing covering.

Greg