L3 colors and paints etc

[Aerco]

If anyone has some knowledge of how these airplanes were finished when they left the factory, please chime in:

I have my L3 fuselage stripped to the frame, cleaned up and shot some epoxy primer; pretty much the same color as zinc chromate.

Now, I'm restoring this to as close to original as practical and assume all the tubing and metal parts were simply left in zinc chromate green? At least I have found no evidence of any color paint. Floorboards, instruments panel and other wood parts: black lacquer - correct?

Was there any interior finish on the sidewalls etc? Was the inside covered with fabric as many Cubs are? I don't think so , but thought I'd ask. Did they paint the inside of the fabric in the cockpit area?
I have not seen any remnants of that on my example, but there was some kind of quilted green vinyl headliner, very likely added by the previous owner I think.

The outside fabric finish is well documented, no help need there (and it's a long way off yet..), but I like to get the details right.

[geneL3c]

Peter , The interior of the L-3's visible from the outside were the same color as the fabric , O.D. The side panels , door , and seats were covered with " Bedford Whipcord " , or " equivalent " . Floor boards , kick panel and instrument panel were black lacquer , as you said . Baggage box cover / desk , was also O.D. Pilot seat frame may have been black also , I'd have to check the drawing . The fuselage and all metal airframe components were chromate , but it was more yellow than contemporary zinc chromate . There was no headliner . Fabric cover extending from behind the baggage box up to the aft part of the greenhouse , blocking off the rear of the fuselage had a zipper for inspection access . Hope this helps , regards , Gene

[Aerco]

Thanks, yes it helps a lot.

I guess I ought to paint the front fuselage frame O.D before I do anything else.

I don't have any side panels as such in this airplane -, just the ply board at the front of the rear seat, that's it.

I have been going through the drawings, but oh, there are a lot of them!

[geneL3c]

Peter , There are no side panels , the whipcord was glued in place to act as the actual interior panels . We cover the inside with Ceconite as well as the inside of the door , and glue the Whipcord to that . Whipcord is available from Antique auto interior suppliers but being wool , it is rather pricey . Using Ceconite as the interior as they do in rag wing Pipers would be a practical alternative . I think the Aeronca factory painted the covered fuselage and exposed interior all at once , not likely they would have bothered with any detail masking since it was a military contract , not likely to have a very long service life . The drawings don't always show much detail and are rather hard to interpret if you don't already know what it looks like in the first place . Gene

[Paul Agaliotis]

Peter,
I used whipcord fabric for the seats in my Tandem. Gene is right on with the fabric costs. When it was all said and done the cost for the memory foam, fabric and labor was about 1K. The job is perfect but you pay for quality.
I'm considering leaving the interior completely out. I'd rather cover the whole airplane than do a ceconite interior,it's very tedious work. I was doing some research on the L2 Taylorcraft and I ran across a T.O that installed aluminum side panels in the planes. It left a lot to the imagination but implied that the interior was exposed.
Paul

[MikeB]

Looking at some of the original drawing for the L16 it appears they also had no interior panels at all, at least from the factory.

MikeB

[geneL3c]

Peter , As Paul said , the Whipcord interior can get costly , his quote for 1K for the interior was probably a very reasonable price , ours have cost a bit more ( East Coast prices ! ) . All the drawings for the military series fabric say " Bedford Whipcord " or " equivalent " . I have some factory photos showing what appears to be a canvas like material . It is unlikely that the production line would shut down if they could not get the exact fabric . Our L-3C which was done in 1990 had interior panels made of .016 " 2024T3 that took quite some time and effort to fit , but has kept elbows and pencils from punching through ! The YO-58 which we are doing now along with a 65-TC will have a Ceconite interior covered with Whipcord . I'm hoping that using the Ceconite first will make fitting and gluing the Whipcord easier . I have a couple of doors with original fabric ( cotton ) that are also covered on the inside , no idea if they ever had Whipcord on them , although my factory photos show covering in Whipcord . Our L-16A has a metal interior that makes inspection a lot easier , but is a little easier to do that the Tandem / Defender / L-3 series . Hope this gives you some food for thought , I've never seen two restorations that did not have some variations . Gene

[Aerco]

Hm, lots of different ways of doing this, I guess. I haven't seen any original interior photos of L3s and the few drawings I have seen regarding this don't show much of anything. I want to build very lightweight example, so I am leaving out any paneling and I don't really want to cover the inside with fabric - I never liked the look of it and how it makes inspecting anything behind there impossible. And since I have seen no evidence that the factory did it (apart from sealing off the rear fuselage), I'll just leave it with the outer fabric skin visible, but painted O.D. along with everything else on the inside (apart from those items in black - floorboards and controls etc).

As a boy I remember discussing the nuances of color schemes on WW2 model airplanes with friends - never thought I'd be doing it on a real one!

I would like to keep it as authentic as I can - within the realms of practicality though. A lot of the original brackets for radio equipment etc. on mine have been cut off for example and I don't intend to replicate all those. I'll keep the seatback that was fitted later too; the original didn't look all that comfortable. And I doubt I'll fork out $1000 for an antenna reel!


Pictures are of two original repairs; fine example of an external and in internal splice. Other than that i had to nothing to the frame other than weld shut a couple of dozen holes where sheetmateal screws had been used a little too judiciously.

[geneL3c]

Peter ,
After all is said and done , I would have to say that the less weight you have to haul , the better the performance . Authentic and " correct " restorations seem to pay a penalty in gaining weight rather fast .
Your decision to weld up the screw holes is a smart one . Few things are more frustrating to deal with than to find that the #4 screw holes have grown to a #10 when you're trying to install your new windshield after you've finished your fabric work ! Good luck , Gene

[Paul Agaliotis]

Peter,
We had Superior mix up some Olive Drab for a L-4 we were doing a long time ago. We used the Army documents for the color, got them from NASM from the original documents. It's not very Olive but it is drab, it's actually a little brownish. Certainly not any of the OD's you see in any of the current color charts. It was so different that the owner of the Cub decided not to use it. And, it's dead flat like a chalk board. It's not a bad color just not a fancy color.
Paul

[Aerco]

Yes, the O.D. you see on most restorations (airplanes and everything else) is way off -far too green and shiny. The shiny part I guess, to make it easier to keep clean?

It's hard to go forward from this stage - I would like to know what the factory procedure was exactly. Prime the frame int e old yellowish zinc chromate, install interior fabric (if there was any), squirt OD all over everything and then install the rest of the controls and equipment? Seems the logical way.

Does anyone know of a suitable, correct shade of OD paint off the shelf? I guess enamel would be fine; mostly for the exposed tubing and struts etc. The outside fabric is still a long way off so I have time to think about that.