Paint Question

peeto · Post by **peeto** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:38

I've looked at 3 nice champs in the last 3 weeks any of which I could have purchased except they are all painted with auto paint (either Imron or PPG)...all were recovered within the last 8-10 years...is this common amongst Champs or am I just snakebit? From what I've read on this forum (and what I was told by the Superflight folks) I was wise to avoid fabric a/c covered with auto paint. What is the concensus amongst you champ veterans? Have you found this to be a common practice? Any advice would be appreciated.

Post by **joea** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 17:27

P2 (a name would be nice)

As I understand it, most covering systems are illegal unless you use everything from the same covering company, ie Stitts paint, fabric, cement and so on.

I know that a lot of people use the auto paints as it can be cheaper and provides a nice shine, but would be very careful on the legality of this. As well they tend to not flex very well and have seen some that cracked, leading to the paint stripping off the fabric.

Joe

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 18:16

I have seen several fabric planes painted with auto paint and they usually crack and show 'ringworms' in the paint after a period of time. The composition of the auto paint is not made for continuous flexing. Cold weather compounds the problem. My present Champ was painted with Imron paint about two years before I bought it and much of the paint was cracked before I recovered it. Also, as Joe mentioned, the fabric systems are produced under a STC and you must use the whole system as designed from start to finish in order to be legal. It's not an uncommon practice for some owners to shoot a coat of auto paint to 'brighten up' a plane for sale.

Mike

peeto · Post by **peeto** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 18:52

Thanks guys...didn't think about the legality issue...sure are LOTS of illegal a/c out there then.

Mark

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 20:01

No doubt the 'legalily issue' is probably 'moot point'

and you're right
there are a lot of Champs, Chiefs, J-3's that are painted with automotive paints. Even with a 'flex agent' they tend to crack though after a period of time. Maybe at higher temperatures they might work but I'd buy with the thought in mind that I'd be recovering ( $$$$$$) in a few years.

Mike

Jody Wittmeyer · Post by **Jody Wittmeyer** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 21:22

Didn't the Super flite or stewart system advocate something like imron?

shazam · Post by **shazam** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 22:02

Did the first airplane I rebuilt, a 7AC, with Imron with flex agent back in the mid-70's. A year or so ago I got came across the guys that have it now. It still looks good and no cracks visible in the pix they sent me. Of course, it's lead a sheltered life. Hangared almost all the time. Your mileage may vary, and I'm not suggesting it is necessarily something I'd do again.

Jim

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 22:47

Jody,
I've used Superflite 2 and (new version) 6 on the ones I've recovered. I'm on my third with the L16A. It is a polyurathane process but is supposedly formulated for ceconite and uses a flex agent in both the primer and the finishing coat. Doesn't use a silver coat as the sun block is in the primer.

I'm not exactly sold on the product but it's kind of like going to the same barber all the time as you know how he'll cut your hair.

I've taken the 'cut outs' for the inspection hole and bent them right around in warm weather with no cracking. On the other hand, if you try that at 20 degrees the paint will crack like a broken mirror. However, in normal use,

I haven't seen any cracks in the paint on my Champ other than a couple of small hairlines when I pushed on it when it was on skis and the temperature was 10-20 degrees. I think some of the problem occurs when too much paint is 'piled on' during the spraying process (too thick: guilty as charged

). I've also seen the problem to some extent by others who used Aerothane as a finshing coat.

The wings on my Champ were covered with the "Blue River" process before I bought it and painted with Imron. They're less than perfect and have hairline cracks especially at the tips but I've been able to scuff sand, prime and refill the cracks every year or so and they look "presentable'. I'm going to recover them if I ever get my L16 finished. Got to have something to fly.

Imron by itself is harder than woodpecker lips and even resists MEK after it's dried. I have no idea if the guy who covered the wings on my Champ used a flex agent or not (log book is really sketchy and non-descriptive). I had a heck of a time trying to strip the stuff off the metal when I redid the rest of the plane.

Mike Berg

WWhunter · Post by **WWhunter** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 23:06

Wecome back Peeto!! So, you gonna try airplane buying again?

Good Luck.
Keith

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 08:14

The only enamel I would stay away from would be the Imron. It was an early polyurethane that required a very thick film coat. ACA uses PPG "auto paint" products in their process. I would be surprised if anyone created an enamel specifically for aircraft use. With such a small market it just wouldn't make sense. Most are adaptations of a commercial product.
If you haven't used paint in the last 18 mo. you will find many of the products have changed or are not available.
Paul

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 08:48

Personally I'd like to see how the new Stewart System (water based, I guess) works out. Working with polyurathane is not a lot of fun and can have nasty health concerns if the fumes are breathed for any amount of time. I have my shop set up with a fresh "Hobby Air" pump and hose coming in from the outside so I breath only clean air but it's another hose to drag around, creat dust, etc.

Mike

jerrymjr · Post by **jerrymjr** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:25

Two Words set is apart:

Flex Agent

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:46

I've been working with a fellow Aeronca owner and Engineer out here in CA. We have weighed 1 sq.ft. sections of fabric from different covering systems. These are not factory supplied test pieces, this is the fabric and finish from the aircraft manufacturers products. It was an eye opener. Based on 500sq.ft the weight savings can be as much as 30lbs.
Once we have some additional information I will post the weights. If you like I will send you the samples to weigh for yourself.
Paul

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:59

Was Razorback one of your samples? It is/was lifetime but weighted a ton--had it on a Stinson SM-8A I owned at one time. The airframe would rot before it did.

Doug

peeto · Post by **peeto** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:36

Hi Keith-
I was seriously thinking about it...found a few extra quarters under the couch a few weeks ago...seems like I keep running into these "snags"...title...paint...cost...you know...too picky for what I want to spend. I'd gladly pay for a good one with floats...or maybe just wait another year and buy a new Savage Cub? Fun to shop but sooner or later I'm going to get too old for this stuff...hope all is well in MN/HI...I won't ask about the Rebel!!!! Mark