Lookin' for a Champ Project near Atlanta

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 21:27

After almost a year of looking at various classic taildraggers, I've concluded that I want a Champ. The problem is that I can't find a decent project within a reasonable distance of Atlanta. Reasonable means 400 miles away or less.

Does anyone have a lead on a Champ project? I'm looking for an airframe that is essentially complete, but needs a complete rebuild. That way I have something to keep me busy in the evenings for 5 years and at the end, I'll have both the knowledge that it was done right and the pride of doing the work myself.

Thanks,

Kyle

Post by **joea** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 23:44

Tater may never finish his, so it might be available!

Just kidding, but David and Nathan are in your neck of the woods and may be able to suggest something.

Joe A

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 00:48

Unless you are young and have alot of time and money --suggest you find one flying, bite the bullet and enjoy it. I have had a lot of friends that wanted a project and never got to fly it. There have been alot of rusty Aeroncas, Cubs and Taylorcrafts that have Gone West because of good intentions. Just an old farts observation. As far as the Atlanta area I don't know one now--but it may be in someones barn.

Doug

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 02:00

Lets not start that AGAIN!

Hyatt aready tried to buy it thanks to Mark Lamon!

Grumps speaks the truth; 5k will get you a 5 year project but 10k will get a flying project. It's nice to pull the tail off one winter and recover, the wings the next etc... That's what Sky Powers did.

nkh

David Johnson · Post by **David Johnson** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 05:43

Much wisdom here. If you get a flyer, at least all the parts will be there. With a project, you never get all the stuff. Even the old timers will miss something. Don't know of anything around our area. Will keep a lookout. My area is starved due to Old Fart Lloyd cleaning the market out 25 years ago. Good luck on the search. Any of us in Georgia will be happy to help any way we can. If you find one, let us know. We would enjoy a field trip to look at one. A word of caution, you may have to look for a while to find a solid one. David J.

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 07:44

Nathan K. Hammond wrote:Lets not start that AGAIN! Hyatt aready tried to buy it thanks to Mark Lamon!

Grumps speaks the truth; 5k will get you a 5 year project but 10k will get a flying project. It's nice to pull the tail off one winter and recover, the wings the next etc... That's what Sky Powers did.

nkh

I'm all for that plan, but the market ain't exactly flooded with $10k Champ flyers these days.

I have not seen a flying Champ advertised for much under $20k since I started looking.

KB

big chief 48 · Post by **big chief 48** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:24

Hi, Well, if the initial money investment for a flying airplane is too much like it was with me, (14-18K) then buy a rebuilder with a few things in mind. I paid 6000 for my 11CC and was missing alot of parts which took me months to find at times-unless you get lucky and find a complete plane that needs rebuilding....be patient, good rebuilders don't come up for sale often. It will take 2-5 years to rebuild. You will have more $$ tied up in a total rebuild then a flyer, but your end result of doing your own is priceless. Confidence, pride and knowledge about your own rebuild are valuable. Everyone should rebuild a plane once in their lives. I ended up spending 25 grand on my rebuild with me putting in about half the work. (the crappy jobs

)verses about 10 grand less for a flying one that would still need work. I spent about 5 K a year on the rebuild, so I figured it was like buying a car with payments over 5 yrs. Thats why i drive an old 2000 dollar truck!!!

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 15:49

I'll put my two cents in here since I've done a couple of rebuilding jobs. My first is the one I"m presently flying and it was somewhat apart with some damage but mostly complete. I paid $8000 for it and had around $16,000 in it when I finished. I recovered everything except the wings which had about 10 years on them and my IA thought they were OK. I farmed out the oleos ($800) and replaced the lift struts (about $1200). Rebuilt prop ($800). Covering material around $3500. I'm sure there were some other big items but it's been awhile. The engine had last been overhauled in 1962 with about 1400 hours on it. Someone had altered the log books to make like it had 250 on it but we caught it

. Eventually, I replaced the engine just because of the 'sit time' it had on it. This job went pretty smooth and only took around 400 hours as all the pieces were more ot less there.

My present (L16) job is total basket case. It's been bought sold and moved several times. Many parts wound up missing or I decided not to use them. I completely rebuilt the wings as two spars were bad and at that point decided to replace all the ribs and leading edge with new wing tanks (about $3500 each wing). It's probably overkill but where do you stop? Complete recovery, etc. Installing a 0200 engine ($10,000 after rebuild) with Wagner STC ($250). As you can see, it all adds up, even if you do most of the work yourself (with IA supervision, of course). I'm guessing I'll have over $25,000 in it before I'm done. This will be over a period of 5 years but as my wife says, "If it keeps you busy it's worth it!!"

.

If I wanted to rebuild one, I'd start with a more complete aircraft or a 'flying project'. Just to lower the frustration level. Understand though, once you pull the cover a lot of warts are bound to show up on a 60 year old piece of machinery that a lot of fingers have touched.

Good Luck!!

Mike Berg

Holcombe · Post by **Holcombe** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 16:53

I wouldn't consider a project unless I had something to fly in the mean time.
How many of us are going to still be fit to fly in five years, especially if we haven't been doing any flying.
A flying project does make sense. But the reality is that any flying 60 year old plane will be a project anyway so budget some money for that reality.
Even if it means paying on time, getting something flying is about the only way to get a plane that can be made complete.

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 21:58

From Trade-A-Plane...

1959 7FC AERONCA, converted to 7AC, complete less door & FWF. Has wing tanks. Stits covered. $8850. AR(903) 826-3242.

Or you could opt for the fully loaded Chief for $84,000

STILL LOOKING FOR a fully equipped, " Mission Capable" Classic LSA? Buy my completely refurbished Chief 11AC. $84,000 completed price including 100hp Continental, new aluminum spars and complete electrics. FL/(407) 644-9608; http://tappix.com/812150

nkh

kyleb · Post by **kyleb** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 22:39

Nathan K. Hammond wrote:From Trade-A-Plane...

1959 7FC AERONCA, converted to 7AC, complete less door & FWF. Has wing tanks. Stits covered. $8850. AR(903) 826-3242.

Or you could opt for the fully loaded Chief for $84,000

STILL LOOKING FOR a fully equipped, " Mission Capable" Classic LSA? Buy my completely refurbished Chief 11AC. $84,000 completed price including 100hp Continental, new aluminum spars and complete electrics. FL/(407) 644-9608; http://tappix.com/812150

nkh

The 7FC/AC might be interesting if it was LSA eligible, but I don't think it is unless someone has done some creative paperwork.

But on to the $84k Chief. Where do I sign up?

Nathan K. Hammond · Post by **Nathan K. Hammond** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 02:22

You could always find another set of paperwork for the project. That's not a bad price if it's really only missing the FWF and door.

nkh

WWhunter · Post by **WWhunter** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 08:41

$84,000!!! For a Chief!!! Did i get a wiff of wacky tabaccy or has that guy been smoking it? Sorry to say it but I sure wouldn't be sucker enough to be that desperate for a plane.

As others have stated.....get the extra money and buy something flying. I have done restorations and they ALWAYS take way more time and MONEY then you will ever envision. You will never come out ahead unless your labor is worth nothing and you find parts for free/next to free.
I am currently building a homebuiltand had planned on finishing it ina few years. Well, too many things change in life and it may be quite awhile til it gets done. Luckily I have a couple other planes to fly in the mean time. If I didn't I probably wouldn't be flying and eventually lose interest in building one.

If you look hard enough you can find flying Champs/Chiefs in the $20K and less range. Just keep doing what you are doing....asking around. Lots of planes are sold by word of mouth for lots less money than most of the planes that are advertised. I found my Champ (LSA legal) for $25,000. It has an O-235 (400hrs.SN), VG's, 3-13gl tanks (39 gallons of fuel!), droop tips, 8.50 tires (now has 26"AkBushwheels), skis, plexiglass seaplane door, and several other mods. I also have PK1500 floats that I paid an additional $9,500 for. This plane was never advertised and I found it via word of mouth. Its pictured in the photo section. Also, maybe you need to be open to traveling some distance to get one. The midwest seems to have a lot of Champs.

Good Luck

Post by **joea** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 09:09

I know of a descent Champ project right now. Could be had for somewhere around $10k or so. It is one that has the fabric already on and painted but unfortunately was left outside and rain got in and now has to come totally down and start at scratch again. No internal rust but the paint is coming off in places on the fuselage so has some surface rust that will require sand blasting the frame again. The wooden formers and such are warped from the rain, so between some surface rust and the wood its going to require recovering.

Wings are like the fuselage, about ready to hang being covered and painted Champ Yellow, but they were built without the micarta bushings in the spar attach points (which is legal for an 65 hp engine but not larger) so its going to need the wings opened up again and drilled for the bushings then either patch the fabric and repaint or just take all of the cover off. Brand new spars and the wings have been stored since cover.

It has a 65, or 85 or O-200 engine, your choice. All are apart and some are yellow tagged and ready to go or some may need some smaller parts. Which engine you get depends on how much you want to pay for the project.

I worked on this project 25 years ago (did the welding on the fuselage) and have known its history for a long time. It was a crop duster that was hung in a barn in SE Arizona and a friend of mine started restoring it. For some reason (we still do not know why) he stopped at the 80% point and thats where it went downhill. The workmanship on this airplane is very good, but it was just neglected for several years and it needs someone who will pick it back up and move forwards with it.

Its now sitting in Prescott Arizona and looking for a home. Yes, its a long drive from Atlanta but its interstate almost all the way. You want a good Champ for a descent price, here is one!

Joe A

Holcombe · Post by **Holcombe** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:00

Sounds like a great retirement project, but have something to fly while rebuilding, maby a Pixie.
Every small field should have a roadworthy flatbed trailer for whatever. If there isn't one around, they aren't expensive, and when it is needed, it is needed right now.