New Member Restoring an 11CC

[u2crossley]

Dear Group,
I am a new owner of an 11CC (1947 11CC-89 N4189E). I live in Friday Harbor Wa. and we are using the airplane to get our EAA Chapter and our Lone Eagle Society Foundation started. It is our first project airplane and it has really been a hit. In the four work meetings we have held we have completely striped the airplane down to the frame and removed the engine.
Since this airplane will be put into a Seniors and Youngsters flying program once restored we want to completely go through it and make it as safe as possible.
Two initial questions:I will be replacing the spars with metal spars (does anyone have any advice in replacing these spars?) and I want to upgrade the C-85-8F with a -12. (No hand propping with kids.) What is necessary in order to upgrade the engine to a -12? Upgraded accessary case? Is it necessary to buy a complete C-85-12 or can I convert my present engine? Is there any reason that if I have to buy another engine that it would be better to buy an O-200? Do you suggest putting in new larger HP cylinders etc in the C-85? Your feed back would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for such a great website. You really have afforded me with a great deal of information to a complete novice in aircraft restoration. I can fly 'em but I never had a chance to fix 'em. Now is my chance. I am really looking forward to see this airplane go from ugly duckling to Oshkosh bound. What a perfect airplane for an initial project. Now if it only cruised at 400 kts at FL350 I would have it all. But low and slow seems to be where I am headed these days and that is just fine to.
Thanks for your help.
James

[Paul Agaliotis]

James,
Welcome to the group.
I would suggest against the metal spars. The wood will provide a better ride and they are lighter. Weight is a big problem in these little airplanes. Since you are planning on an electrical system you will need to save the weight in other areas.
I would find a C85-12 rather than try to modify your engine. If you find you need a little more you can install the O200 crank and rods for some more pulling power.
Paul

[skyking3286]

James, I'm down at Harvey with an 11AC and I second that wood/metal issue. Get a truck, run over to Moses Lake and pick up Rainbow aviation's new spars and you will be so far ahead of the game as far as flying and maintaining the plane.

Be careful with the -12 upgrade. If it's not on the TC you're in trouble. Buzz Wagner had the STC for the -12 upgrade. Also, join us at the fAA forums too... between the NAA and fAA forums, you'll get plenty of help. I have a lot of written material on the 11 series. A little bit of it is on the web address below....

Mark Peterson
Kirkland, WA
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/3287/

[joea]

First off, welcome on board!

Sorry to be somewhat against your plans on your first post but I have to post another vote against the metal spars.

They simply are not needed. As you seem to be fairly new to the Aeronca world will give you some history. For 50-60 years we never had any problems with the wooden spars. Then several years ago a rental Citabria was doing acrobatics and lost a wing in flight.

Turns out that the airplane had been overstressed, possibly for years, before the wing had "had enough" and failed. Also remember that the Citabria has used the same basic wing as the Aeronca but its gross weight increased several times. Your airplane is around 1250 gross weight and the Citabria is up to I believe 1750 pounds gross weight, so we are talking about an airplane that is 500 pounds heavier than the Chief and Champ using the same wooden spars in aerobatic flight.

There has NEVER been an Aeronca that lost a wing due to the issues contained in this AD, and there are thousands of other post-WW2 era airplanes out there flying with wooden spars that have NO AD associated with their wings. We have put up with this AD for around 10 years now and while some cracked spars have been found, the vast majority of them have had cracks outboard of the strut attachment point due to "ground loop" incidents. You might wonder why there are no AD's on the Piper Cubs, Taylorcrafts, early Cessna C-120/140's and so on, all of which have wooden spars exactly like the Aeronca and have had no problems. Hmmm, none of the above make an aerobatic trainer, so their airplanes were not used for aerobatics and overstressed.

I owned a Chief a while back and it had a crack found in one of the four spars. Oh by the way, the ground loop that caused the crack occured way back in the 1970's (was noted in the logbooks) and the crack in the spar was found in the late 1990's, almost 30 years later. It flew for almost 30 years like this with no issues

In short, many people feel that this was pushed through in concert with the company who currently owns the Type Certificate for the 7 & 11 series, the company who makes the metal spars, and their lawyers to avoid any liability. To this day the company who currently owns the Type Certificate refuses to do ANY work on one of their airplanes that has wooden spars, fearing liability and lawsuits from "ambulance chasing" lawyers.

There is nothing wrong with a good set of wooden spar wings, and in fact they are in many ways better than one that uses the metal spars.

Regarding the -8 to -12 conversion its easy! Sell the -8 engine and find a -12 engine! Way back in the 1940-1960 time period you might have been able to do this but these days the parts and tooling needed are just not available, so its easier to get a different engine. I do agree with your idea on not hand propping around kids, its just a lot safer to push a button and start the airplane.

Joe A

[Roger Anderson]

First off, welcome on board!

Regarding the -8 to -12 conversion its easy! Sell the -8 engine and find a -12 engine! Way back in the 1940-1960 time period you might have been able to do this but these days the parts and tooling needed are just not available, so its easier to get a different engine. I do agree with your idea on not hand propping around kids, its just a lot safer to push a button and start the airplane.

Joe A

There's a C85-12 for sale on this site. Look at the Engine/Powerplant for sale section.

Oh...might add, since you're going to be involved for a while with rebuilding this machine, you might want to check out the following. It is an additional Aeronca group, email based discussion. Many of the same persons you'll see on here over there also, and many additional others. It will usually get you an answer (factual or opinion) in minutes. Be cautioned, it generates a huge number of messages each day. I suggest dedicating an email address just to it. You can also get it in digest form if desired. It's run by a very nice guy in Santa Inez, Ca. who is well under way rebuilding his Chief. roger

http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[flyingfool]

You probably already know this. But I just wanted to point out that the 11CC does NOT qualify as an LSA as its gross weight is over 1,320 lbs.

It is however an excellent airplane.

[shep]

I'm in Yakima with 11CC N4552E also undergoing restoration.

The STC to change the engine over to a C-85-12F is held by Charlie Lasher's son.

lasher_d@yahoo.com

You'll need a 337 Field approval to get an
electric starter which has been done by others. I have heard FSDOS are making 337's more difficult although they encourage mods that increase safety.

Buzz Wagoner held the STC for the O-200/O-235 with an electrical conversion. It needed a new, slightly longer engine mount and will be difficult to get as Buzz recently passed away.

The 11CC had a 100 pound higher gross weight than the 11BC in the normal category (1350 vs 1250). The 11CC is also approved in the utility category at 1290 pounds. The Milman spar conversion adds about 10 pounds.

You can look at this a couple of different ways. For me I felt I had the 10 pounds to take
(Conservatively 40 pounds to play with with compared to the 11BC/11AC) and went ahead with the Milman's. I think I can also get some weight back doing the following
a) Removed wind driven electrical generator
b) Use Stewart covering system - reported to be lighter and is headquartered in WA state.

I can't find it right now but there is also a series of photos on this site detailing the conversion. There are no AD's on Milman spars and the same spar in used in the 7GCBC with a 1750 pound gross weight. I am not aware of any Milman's failing.

I'm the Web admin for EAA Chapter 206 in Yakima and we have coffee and donuts every Saturday. When the weather over the Cascades allows you're welcome to come over.
http://www.eaa206.org

I may be able to hitch a ride some time this summer to Friday Harbor

What may also be issues for you are the mechanical brakes - both Goodyear Disc(clips) and Cleveland Drum brakes (wheels) and fuel valves (Imperial quit making
valves after John Denver died)

[u2crossley]

Guys thanks for all the information. Please keep it coming. I need more input. The spar issue sems pretty straight forward. I do not plan on being upside down either flying or on the ground with this airplane so I do not see the additional requirement for the metal spar at this point. Those of you that have any history with this spar how difficult was the change? Are all of the holes pre-drilled? Or (I assume) that each airplane is different enough that this is not a good idea.
I will see what we can do about buying a C-85-12 outright. I will check out the one that is posted here. Has anyone done the Lasher STC that is mentioned and how complete is it (instructions/plans etc). Is it very straight forward? I have time to find another engine but somehow would prefer to keep this engine with this airplane if possible.
Thanks,
James

[Nathan K. Hammond]

James, spar blanks are easy to come by on the west coast; and the original drawings are available through the NAA so you can make your own wood spars. Tim, did a good write-up on his spars... http://joea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2333

The Lasher STC is very straight forward, but unfortunatly is only approved for the 7AC. Your best bet on getting approval for the -12 engine is finding another Chief's paperwork that has done the mod.

Converting a -8 engine to a -12 is a serious project. The main and rear case's have to be swapped and when re-assembling use -12 gears.

Glad you're here James, there's always a good conversation and lots of folks willing to help. Don't hold back a question.

nkh

[skyking3286]

oops, my bad for mixing Buzz Wagner and Charlie Lasher's STCs. It's been a while since I've thought of the -8 to -12 switch. I think there was a metal bowl from WalMart involved in getting firewall space. . . for one of those conversions!

But wood spars from Rainbow in Moses Lake are way over engineered for your use. He adds more plywood in the doublers, they look good and with you being in this wonderful state, it's just a drive over Snoqualmine Pass to pick them up. Shipping is the major expense with spars. Reusing a well inspected spar is just fine too... it's old growth timber and you'll be hard pressed to find that wood today. My spars in the Chief have the originial mill stamp on them from Aberdeen WA!

I second the idea of buying a -12....and join us over at John Rodkey's fAA list!

Mark

[Roger Anderson]

James, spar blanks are easy to come by on the west coast; and the original drawings are available through the NAA so you can make your own wood spars. Tim, did a good write-up on his spars... http://joea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2333


nkh

Nathan. Thanks for the link on Tim's efforts. That's a great posting he did on spar creation. I was not aware of it. roger

[joea]

Roger and James,

If someone is interested in making their own spars, or even just doing their own wings, the thread that Tim did is one of the best I have seen on this.

Well worth the time to take in looking at the steps he took and things that he encountered.

Joe A

[Roger Anderson]

Roger and James,

If someone is interested in making their own spars, or even just doing their own wings, the thread that Tim did is one of the best I have seen on this.

Well worth the time to take in looking at the steps he took and things that he encountered.

Joe A

Joe. I'm not. However, I concur with that being an excellent thread. With his concurance, wonder if it could be posted in another resource area...if there is such a place. roger

[shep]

The Lasher STC is very straight forward, but unfortunatly is only approved for the 7AC. Your best bet on getting approval for the -12 engine is finding another Chief's paperwork that has done the mod.

I believe the STC also applies to 11CC aircraft.
http://mail.westmont.edu/pipermail/aero ... 76722.html

I also purchased the STC for my 11CC Chief and submitted the planes serial number(11CC-251) to David Lasher

I think there was a metal bowl from WalMart involved in getting firewall space. . . for one of those conversions!

The newer, lightweight starters are also smaller and not as long as the older starters. I believe that a light weight starter will not protrude from the back of the accessory case any further than the mags.

[CptKelly]

The B&C starter is quite short, and doesn't need a dish in the firewall.

Mike