sport pilot rules

albert johnson · Post by **albert johnson** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:12

Hello all, I have a "57" 7ec champ with a 90 hp according to the TSDS my maximum weight with the no-bounce gear is 1450. (not sport legal) but if it has the smaller oleo gear the max weight is 1300. (sport legal) So is this as simple as that, change gear and it sport legal?

gusc · Post by **gusc** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 14:08

Albert,

I don't think there is any way to make an original 7EC into a lesser model but I don't know this for sure. I'm sure some of the experts here will let you know.

The best way to find out is to check the Type Data Sheets for your airplane. They will tell you if the gear change is legal, which I doubt.

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 16:46

Hi Albert, simple answer is NO, once any aircraft has been approved for a Max wt of more than 1320 lbs it can not be reversed. No doubt your plane came from the factory with the no bounce / 1450 lb Max wt so that is what it is forever. The FAA aircraft history CD should confirm what the original max wt was.

Post by **joea** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:53

If they plane ever had the no bounce gear on it and the FAA was advised of this fact AND the GW officially increased above 1320 then its not legal as a SP airplane.

That said, if someone put the NB gear on it and never told the FAA about it (its on the TCDS, so why do any paperwork, just a log entry) then you could make sure you have the stock gear.

As mentioned above, get the FAA CD and check what paperwork has been sent to the FAA.

Joe A

albert johnson · Post by **albert johnson** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 13:57

Thanks guys for the input. Obviously I was hoping for a different result. Mine did come with the heavier gear. It upsets me that my champ looks just like all the others, flys like the others, preforms like the others, and will not be sport legal if I put the smaller gear on?

Post by **joea** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 14:17

Al,

It all depends on if the gross weight was ever increased on the airplane AND paperwork to that effect sent into OKC.

There is precidence that if the plackard was never put on the airplane for the GW increase that the FAA says that it was not legally taken out of its previous classification and the airplane is still SP legal, but you need to get the CD from the FAA in OKC to confirm what they have in their hands.

Joe A

Champ Dreamer · Post by **Champ Dreamer** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 17:33

FAA aside, if you ever wrecked the thing, your insurance company would surely find the descrpency and burn your check (in front of you!)

Post by **joea** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 19:27

Champ Dreamer,

Please, if Al finds that the previous owner did not increase the GW past 1320, or plackard the airplane for the higher weight, or did not send all the paperwork into the FAA, all of which have happened in the past with our airplanes, then the airplane is legally still a SP airplane.

You are correct that if the FAA has been notified of these things happening and then he flies it as a SP airplane that its not correct but otherwise he is totally correct if he can prove his position or that one of these links have not been done.

We have a letter in writing to one of our members from the FAA proving this.

Joe A

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 19:29

Champ Dreamer wrote:FAA aside, if you ever wrecked the thing, your insurance company would surely find the descrpency and burn your check (in front of you!)

I guess I don't understand your statement, the standard oleo's P/N 3-433 are legal to install on the aircraft, not loading your aircraft to Max wt is legal, so what could the insurance say?

Albert, I think that there were only a few Aeronca 7EC's delivered with the P/N 3-433/standard oleo's (1300 lb max wt) that was in 1949 / 50 by 1957 when Champion was building the 7EC I don't think the standard oleo was available so all their 7EC would have been 1450 lb Max wt. Here again the only positive way to know for sure would be to get the FAA CD for your plane and see what the original wt & bal states. One must remember that while the 7EC looks similar to the 7AC they are different airplanes.

flyingfool · Post by **flyingfool** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:07

MNflyer.

While the AIRCRAFT may be legal with the no bounce gear etc. and the GW increased to exceed 1,320 lbs, the PILOT would be illegal if he was flying with sport pilot certificate or under the privleges of sport pilot (ie drivers license medical) of an aircraft with a gross weight that exceeds 1,320 lbs. Regardless of whether or not the aircraft was loaded at or below 1,320 lbs at the time of the accident. This is an illegal flight!

Most insurance policy's state that you have to be following all the regs for the policy to be in effect. So say bye, bye to the insurance check!

The Cessna 120/140 crowd and I think others have been VERY active in trying to get FAA to accpet an STC that would lower the gross weight to 1,320. And the FAA will not allow it. The C-140 was thought to have a good case as the FAA accidently did allow one C-140 to do this and was "approved" to be a light sport aircraft in the very first weeks or months after the sport aicracft regulation was passed. However I believe the FAA recinced that "approval". Or if not. This will be the ONLY light sport C-140 forever!

Why the FAA will not allow the likes of the champs, super chiefs, luscombes etc with GW over 1,320 to placard and limit themselves to 1,320 is totally beyond me. But the FAA does not have to make sense!

albert johnson · Post by **albert johnson** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:35

I have the FAA CD and original paper and my Champ was certified at 1450 with the heavier gear. The way you guys are talking I think I'm just out of luck as far as being able to go under sport pilot rules.

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 13:25

Hi FlyingFool, I know very well what the sport pilot regs are and that it is not legal to fly as a sport pilot in a non LSA aircraft, that aside Albert was asking if there was any legal way to put his airplane in the LSA cat and that is what I was speaking to.
Champ Dreamers post said nothing about flying as a Sport Pilot in a non LSA aircraft and that's why I questioned his post.
If you go back and read all the posts you will see I advised Albert to get the FAA CD to find out just exactly how his plane was originally certified which He did and has found that the plane has always been cert. at 1450 lb max wt so is not eligible for LSA regs (*ever).
An Insurance co can deny one of coverage for running a non approved prop or for having 8.50 non approved tires there are any number of things that can be the cause for denial of coverage, here again how often does this really happen not as much as some folk would try to make it to be, but it does happen. So the best thing is to be legal in both the eyes of the FAA and the insurance company.

Post by **joea** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 13:27

Albert,

You are correct that the airplane is not and will not (as the rules are written as of today) ever be Sport Pilot legal.

Joe A

SFC Hiatt · Post by **SFC Hiatt** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 14:38

While we are on the subject.....let me remind everyone that a Sport Pilot may NOT do any maintance on a certified aircraft even he you own the airplane....