Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
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jc pacquin
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 21:12
- Location: baltimore, md.
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Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
My instructor in 1953 was also a WW2 instructor and Corsair pilot. He stressed wheel landings possibly because he had seen so many wheel landings turn into disasters, in the cadet program! plus he owned the champ he taught in. He did tell tales of cubs and Stearmans doing cartwheels, flipping over,etc. on landing. Interesting: He said the Stearmans NEVER landed in a cross wind but rather towards a wind sock in a great mown circle! This was adopted after so many accidents. I would really like to see the landing display mentioned, especially in a Stearman with winds 15-25. Sounds exciting ! I must be there! JC
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
When I first tried Xwinds in a Champ after many years of flying Pipers I tried wheel landings just like in the Pipers.
After about six unsuccessful attempts at this I just plunked it down 3pt and it stuck like glue!!
After a lot of thinking (I'm a bit slow) I decided it was because of the difference in landing gear stiffness that made for two different techniques.
Pipers will stick all day on the wheels because the MLG is so stiff. I can easily run the full length of a runway in a J3 on the one upwind wheel, used to show this to my students when teaching Xwind ldgs. Same for anything with spring gear except the Cessna 120/140 which had very soft spring gear.
If I try this in a the Champ the gear is so soft it bounces all over the place.
When a Champ is landed tail down in a Xwind the downwind gear is almost fully extended, very little weight is on it, so it really isn't a 3pt ldg in the normal sense.
Another thing I found with the Champ is that if it swerves and drops a wing on landing or takeoff it can easily be stopped by using aileron to pick up the wing. Once the wing is up the rudder works fine. Rudder alone will not save you in this situation, however, a Piper will easily recover by using only rudder. I taught all my Champ students this and never lost a wingtip.
Again, I think the MLG difference is the reason for this. When a Champ wing drops, the gear on that side really compresses. The Piper gear does not, the opposite wheel just raises.
Of course if you are so slow neither rudder nor aileron is effective you are just along for the ride unless the Piper brakes are very good, not usually the case. In the Champ brakes won't matter, they will not save your tail, if that wing stays down you are going to do a nice loop for the airport bench crowd!
After about six unsuccessful attempts at this I just plunked it down 3pt and it stuck like glue!!
After a lot of thinking (I'm a bit slow) I decided it was because of the difference in landing gear stiffness that made for two different techniques.
Pipers will stick all day on the wheels because the MLG is so stiff. I can easily run the full length of a runway in a J3 on the one upwind wheel, used to show this to my students when teaching Xwind ldgs. Same for anything with spring gear except the Cessna 120/140 which had very soft spring gear.
If I try this in a the Champ the gear is so soft it bounces all over the place.
When a Champ is landed tail down in a Xwind the downwind gear is almost fully extended, very little weight is on it, so it really isn't a 3pt ldg in the normal sense.
Another thing I found with the Champ is that if it swerves and drops a wing on landing or takeoff it can easily be stopped by using aileron to pick up the wing. Once the wing is up the rudder works fine. Rudder alone will not save you in this situation, however, a Piper will easily recover by using only rudder. I taught all my Champ students this and never lost a wingtip.
Again, I think the MLG difference is the reason for this. When a Champ wing drops, the gear on that side really compresses. The Piper gear does not, the opposite wheel just raises.
Of course if you are so slow neither rudder nor aileron is effective you are just along for the ride unless the Piper brakes are very good, not usually the case. In the Champ brakes won't matter, they will not save your tail, if that wing stays down you are going to do a nice loop for the airport bench crowd!
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
I had pretty much the opposite experience of Gus when going from no-bounce gear to bungee, especially on skis. I spend a lot of time landing on new lakes, and constantly deal with the possibility of overflow under a good crust of snow. In the Champ, I can drag it fairly normally, then come back and hit hard in my old tracks, and hold it on and down as hard as as snowdepth will let me to drag out a safe place to land in on the next go-around. Done right, this almost (ALMOST!) guarantees that there's enough snow to hold you up when you land, even if there's overflow under the snow, as you've got some downlift ("weight") on the wing while dragging it with the tail up. Just leave some tracks and land in them, and everything works fine until you get almost or completely stopped, then you fall through the crust into the water and there you are. Took me fer-friggin-ever to figure out how not to just get tossed back into the air when trying that on stiffer gear. It's easy enough on long lakes, but trying to be precise and touch hard as close to the trees as possible without bouncing is a whole different ballgame on bungee gear. As Gus says, very different techniques for different airplanes.
Here's what happens when you discover overflow. It's a whole lot worse if you discover it AFTER you land. That's about 6 inches of ice built up on a mainski from successfully finding overflow, if it's not clear from the picture. Get iced up, go land somewhere safe, clean it off (there are always big globs on the bottoms too - those are fun), and go try it again until you find a dry spot to land. Wheeeee!!
Here's what happens when you discover overflow. It's a whole lot worse if you discover it AFTER you land. That's about 6 inches of ice built up on a mainski from successfully finding overflow, if it's not clear from the picture. Get iced up, go land somewhere safe, clean it off (there are always big globs on the bottoms too - those are fun), and go try it again until you find a dry spot to land. Wheeeee!!
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
Dusty,
If I ever make it to Alaska would you teach me to fly off the snow and tundra? The adrenaline must really flow!
Charles
If I ever make it to Alaska would you teach me to fly off the snow and tundra? The adrenaline must really flow!
Charles
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
I don't know about teaching anything, but you're welcome to follow me around or ride along.seaheli wrote:Dusty,
If I ever make it to Alaska would you teach me to fly off the snow and tundra? The adrenaline must really flow!
Charles
Adrenaline usually means you're doing it wrong. So yea, it really flows when I'm driving....
Bring a shovel.
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
Dusty, was that breaking through a crust, or just really deep snow? I've been there with really deep snow that got soft on a warm day. Shovel & snowshoes. I think I'm getting too old for that! So far, I haven't been caught in overflow (knock on wood).
Re: Crosswind--Wheel or 3-point
That was dry underneath, but there was overflow maybe 100' behind me all winter so you can imagine how screwed I thought I was when it all went to hell....
There was a hard crust about a foot down, and when a ski popped through that it was all the way to the bottom. Dig out under the belly, and she goes down some more. Rinse and repeat. Dig out around the wingtip, then for the prop, then under the struts, and of course the tailfeathers are holding the plane up the whole time. Finally hit bottom, THEN WHAT? Snowshoe, snowshoe, snowshoe. I'm pretty low on fuel, and know it's all out there in the right tank, and nowhere near the pickup, so something else to worry about. Not the best day I've ever had, but everything except my step made it out intact, and on the same day, so it could have been way worse. I even had time to take a couple pictures!
It was cold that day, but there had been a big snow followed by a big chinook the week before, so the drift was about 4 feet of loose corn snow with an inch of half-rotten ice on top of it, and then a foot of new snow to make it all look the same. And, of course, overflow all over the place. Nasty, nasty conditions.
And just to tie that all back in here, I landed on that lake in flat light and blowing snow in a 15MPH crosswind the week before. I used the "this feels about right, and I hope to hell there's a lake down there somewhere and I'm kinda where I think I am and headed roughly in the right direction and maybe not too sideways" method. Worked out, but not really recommended.
Scouting a dry path out:
There was a hard crust about a foot down, and when a ski popped through that it was all the way to the bottom. Dig out under the belly, and she goes down some more. Rinse and repeat. Dig out around the wingtip, then for the prop, then under the struts, and of course the tailfeathers are holding the plane up the whole time. Finally hit bottom, THEN WHAT? Snowshoe, snowshoe, snowshoe. I'm pretty low on fuel, and know it's all out there in the right tank, and nowhere near the pickup, so something else to worry about. Not the best day I've ever had, but everything except my step made it out intact, and on the same day, so it could have been way worse. I even had time to take a couple pictures!
It was cold that day, but there had been a big snow followed by a big chinook the week before, so the drift was about 4 feet of loose corn snow with an inch of half-rotten ice on top of it, and then a foot of new snow to make it all look the same. And, of course, overflow all over the place. Nasty, nasty conditions.
And just to tie that all back in here, I landed on that lake in flat light and blowing snow in a 15MPH crosswind the week before. I used the "this feels about right, and I hope to hell there's a lake down there somewhere and I'm kinda where I think I am and headed roughly in the right direction and maybe not too sideways" method. Worked out, but not really recommended.
Scouting a dry path out: