Good deal, Bad deal, $$$

[Tim Juhl]

OK - this will be a tough one to answer. I went with a friend yesterday to look at a 46 Champ "project". It had sat in a hangar since 1978 - the owner (since deceased) rescued it from an airport where it had set outside for many years. Indeed, the trailing edge of the elevators had rusted to the point of destruction. The gent who bought it made a lot of plans about restoring it, bought some parts, but only got as far as to strip the fabric off.

All the pieces (less the prop) appear to be there. No logs but a real data plate. The engine (A65-8) is a total unknown - the spars "look" OK but need a careful examination, the fuselage tubing has surface rust to varying degrees (from still painted to no paint).

We haven't talked price yet and my friend wants to fly an A&P in that has restored a few Citabrias to look at it (good idea.)

I would appreciate what you guys would think of such a project (grab it or RUN!) and if anyone has any idea as to what similar projects have sold for as late.

Tim

[Mikek]

We haven't talked price yet and my friend wants to fly an A&P in that has restored a few Citabrias to look at it (good idea.)

Tim

Yes good idea

if you can get it of less than $8,000 closer to 6,000 you both got a deal. Its nothing to run with.

2 to 12 years to complete
additional 5,000 to 12,000 engine better yet go 18,000 to 25,000 for a 85 hp

If he keeps it for 15-20 years after completion and flies it 100 plus a year he should get back the full price he paid for it 6,000 to 8,000

I bought one, 7AC two year back for 6,000 complete down since 1971 needs alot
My AI got another one for 7,000 complete but needs alot

[MikeB]

Tim,
Two projects for the 'whatever it's worth department'.

I bought a 7AC with a 65 horse around 10 years ago for about $8000. It was complete but had been nosed over (no wing tip ding or not on the back). I recovered everything but the wings which had been covered in the early 1990's. Basically it was structurally in pretty good shape. Complete logs from day one. I think I had around $14,000 in it when I finished over a period of 3-4 years. I did replace all the lift struts for about $1200 at that time. Eventually bought different engine (A65) but was able to keep my old one which had around 1400 hours on it.

After I finished that one and sold my Cherokee 140 I had too much time on my hands and heard about a L16 that was for sale around 100 miles south of me. It was fairly complete but no logs and no engine (one of those that had apparently been bought sold and moved several times so some small parts wound up disappearing). In a 'weak moment' I wound up paying $8000 for that one also which in my mind was too much (I was thinking more $6000) but it was a L16 for whatever it's worth but there were a fair amount of extra parts, etc. that came with it. Let's just say it looked better in the dark hangar than it did once I got it home and discovered a lot of cobbling in the airframe struture which we solved by welding in new lower longerons all the way up to the 'fishmouth' just behind the landing gear. At near age 71 I figure this will be my last plane so I'm trying to do things right: new lift struts, wings completely rebuilt with new spars, ribs, leading edge and wing tanks. New windshield, upper and lower cowl, all new glass and 0200 engine with new ECI nickel cylinders. I'm sure I'll have $25-30,000 in it before I'm done but it's kept me busy for the past 5 years which my wife of 47 years will tell you is a neccesity. I don't expect to financially come out on this plane and, in fact, I don't really care. I enjoy the building and tinkering process probably more than flying anyway. My biggest satisfaction though will be hopefully rescuing another Aeronca that would have probably wound up in the scrap pile somewhere. That's worth more than the dollar amount to me.

So I guess it gets down to whether your friend is interested in coming out dollar wise or the satisfaction of getting another Aeronca in the air.

MikeB

[joea]

Look all over the plane for the data-tag, as they screwed them in various places.

Then look at the logbooks as it might be there. Would be really careful about buying any project without a data-tag, and if the logs were missing then would consider it parts only. If the logs are there then do a good title search, check the FAA CD and then make an offer.

Agree with the above comments and the lower a price you can get it for the better. Lots of work to get the old gal back up in the air but its worth it.

[Tim Juhl]

The data tag was the first thing I looked for. It was screwed to the floorboard on the right side just in front of the cover for the aileron control sector. I've seen too many projects that lacked the plate and warned my friend of the problems he would face if the plate was missing.

Unfortunately, the logs are missing but since he would be doing a total restoration I don't see that as a big problem.

Tim

[Captgrumps]

Missing logs no problem. Has registation been cancelled? Is there an Airworthiness Certificate or is a conformaty inspection in order? I would not want to give over $5000/$6000 max. I can see atleast a $20,000 restoration (engine, hidden thngs, controls, fabric, dope and all the hidden things). And two or three years. Sometimes it is better to just go buy an airplane for $25000 to $35000 (current decent Champ prices 65hp-85hp) nowadays if you want to fly that someone else has done all the restoration and is afraid to tell the wife.

Doug

[Tim Juhl]

Despite the fact that the airplane hasn't flown in 40 years it has a current registration. I saw the airworthiness certificate but it is in poor condition and will need to be replaced. You are correct about the pros and cons of restoration versus buying a flying airplane.... I guess it mostly depends upon how much a person would enjoy the experience of bringing a neglected airplane back to life. I know that I learned a lot and enjoyed seeing my champ come together out of a pile of spare parts.

Tim

[rchay]

don't do it,too many a/c around ready to fly,,a real buyers market.

[Paul Agaliotis]

Tim,
I wouldn't be interested in the plane for anymore than 5K. The paperwork is worth 1K, the wings $1500, fuselage $1500 and the engine 1K. Unless your buddy just has to have an A65, I would install the C85, so dump the engine. Now it's 4K and it's still a crap shoot. Unless you can buy it as a "fire sale" I'd pass. Somebody out there will give him a big bunch of money and get burned.
Paul

[Tim Juhl]

He passed - more work than he wanted to take on. I heard that somebody did buy it so maybe it will eventually rejoin the ranks of the flying.

Tim

[jbaker]

Good move on your friends part. If you want a Champ to fly there are too many great ones for sale. If you want to restore a plane figure twice as much money and twice the time , but four times the pleasure and eight times the pride .

[MikeB]

jbaker:
Thanks! Now I feel better regarding my restoration projects....you pretty much hit it right on the nose

MikeB

[Holcombe]

My two cents worth.
Glad the project found a home, but...
Total restoration, like building an experimental, should only be undertaken if you have a plane to fly in the mean time, and the time and money to do the job right.