Slips-Nose up or nose down?

[Red(neck) Barron]

I don't have a problem using flaps, even on a power off approach. How much depends on how the airplane responds to them but for the most part the first notch or 10 - 20 degrees will add lift and lower stall speed thus allowing a slower landing. Usually that's a good thing unless the winds are totally nuts.

The thing about the current state of power vs. power off approaches comes a lot from the bigger flight schools who are preparing students to fly bigger iron. I know because I worked at one many moons ago. I've got some time in a 310 and I wouldn't care to do a power off from downwind in that brick. But the power off technique needs to be taught to all new pilots. And on a personal note, nothing grips me more than some of those long and wide patterns. More than one time I had gotten abeam the numbers and some other joker was on downwind ahead of me so durn far out that I thought he was on a cross country. I pulled power and was on the ground and off the runway long before he ever got back to thinking about touching down. I've done that in many different planes, my old Cherokee could really be horsed around if you knew how to fly it. And I spent time as owner of a Navion, a wonderful sled but I ended up nicknaming it 'My silver bellied buck-sucker' for obvious reasons. But it's great to be in a Champ again, that was my first airplane and I owned a share of one when I was 15. That was way back in 1965. Since that time they seem to have gotten smaller inside and much more difficult to get in and out of. I still fly a power pattern if I'm sequencing in with other traffic but if my original instructor is looking down on me she probably is having a fit. Maybe that's her just as I touch down a breeze gets under me and I end up looking like a giant green Jack Rabbit hippity hopping down the runway.

Oh, and my first Champ; one of you guys owns it today. I saw it's picture and she is looking pretty. Say hi to 84149 for me.

Pardon my rambling, it's either that or go back outside and get back to work.

[jc pacquin]

As for speed on final, I THINK I'm doing about 60 over the fence, I although I don't really look to see. I always keep my speed up until I'm over the fence,carb heat on of course and throttle OFF. As for a slip controlling speed, I think its obvious that IT DOES! The T-Craft, like the Stearman slows considerably when its side is presented to the wind. Its always amazing to me to see current instructors doing airline approaches in a 150 or a 172, lots of flap ,and Waaaaay out there on final. A certain prescription for disaster if the engine gives up. I don' t do 50 or 55 on final, too slow for me in case it gives up. I do get sloppy on the rudder and have to remind myself often to use proper rudder input. I land on 2300 feet of paved so I have plenty of room to bleed off speed. I usually touch down in a three point about 200 feet past the numbers. JP

[Dan1940Chief]

It is amazine how many biennials that I do that when I ask the pilot to land with zero flaps, they look at me like I am nuts.

Being able to make the runway from any spot in the pattern if the engine quits is just good safe sense.

I'm confused .... (easy, I know )

I think these two things are different. No flap landing in a electric flap-equipped airplane makes sense to practice in case you lose electric power (I've had it happen in a C152 and a 1947 V-Tail Bonanza).

But returning to the runway from "any spot in the pattern" is impossible (takeoff until what altitude?), and if I have an engine out on downwind, I'm going to use flaps, slips -- whatever -- to keep the runway in sight and reachable.

So, I think asking for a no flap landing makes sense, as long as it's framed within the "you lost all electric" scenario.

Otherwise, I don't see how it fits into the precision engine-out landing scenario.

I'm a "full flaps every time unless you have a good reason not to..." type. I've been sold on the concept that the airplane is far better at flying than rolling, so we should do whatever we can to reduce the total energy in the aircraft when we touch back down to earth. 1.2 Vso is a fine number.

[rkittine]

How are things in Murfessesboro? I used to live in Franklin and loved it.

[rkittine]

Hey Dan,

I am not against using flaps, in fact on my 182 and 340A I almost always use them. I have seen Johnson bars freeze up over the years and hydraulics go out in addition to electrical failure, which happened to me years ago bring back a brand new C-182 from the factory to a new customer. In some planes as you know, you have to pump the flaps in (Mooney, early Citabrias etc.) and my point was that I now see all normal landings being taught with flaps. I think everyone should know how to make a flapless landing and how to slip an airplane.

I like steep approaches in VFR Conditions so that the speed you are carrying gets you lower, not farther down the runway, like you said. That usually dictates flaps, or a slip to replace them. From pattern altitude with an engine loss and no flaps used until landing is assured, you usually can maneuver to a landing. Easier in a glider, where we regularly simulate a rope failure at 200 feet AGL.

We all fly a little differently and many ways are safe. Knowing how to land without the flaps in is just an added precaution.

[Roger Anderson]

How are things in Murfessesboro? I used to live in Franklin and loved it.

Excellent, but getting BIG. MTSU has 26,000 students this year and Murfreesboro has housing and shopping development everywhere . MTSU's aerospace and professional pilot program is very active also. If you've been gone a while you would not recognize the Franklin area either. My Chief is down at Shelbyville. I picked it up about 9 years ago up in NY, but can't remember the community, out pretty far WNW of NYC. roger

[jc pacquin]

I'm talking about making the field from PATTERN ALTITUDE! I'm NOT talking about "just after takeoff! Also concerning flaps....I'm describing approaches that are too low and too far out, with lots of flap. There IS NO WAY your going to make it if the engine craps out, yet its done on a daily basis. If I'M using flaps (Cessna 180) ,the only Cessna I flew alot, I'm high on final and in a steep descent with full flaps, and in close as possible. WhenI was young and had too much faith in yellow tags, etc. ,I used to go into very short fields in a 180, hanging it on the prop, trimmed up ,lots of flap, slow, etc. No more! not after the Mooney201 quit on take off at Teterboro, 6 hours after annual. (A&P forgot to check the final fuel filter (under the seat.) It was full of crap. It quit 100 feet in the air,JUST got the gear down in time! I got stopped 10 feet from the fence which read "Page fence company Bayone, N.J.) On the other side of the fence, apartment buildings (1985) JP