Cost of an Overhaul

[Nathan K. Hammond]

Budget engine…HA! Now that it’s all together and bolted on the airplane, I started totaling up the cost of my rebuild. A quick background: I bought a C85 core off eBay (bad idea) that was not complete but had the major components; case, crank, 4 cylinders (.015 oversize), some misc. stuff. The case was actually a C-90-8, but I swapped it for a C-85-12 and cam at Don’s Dream Machines. I swapped solely because of the oil filter ability of the -12 case. Originally it was going to be a stock C-85, but the crank was destroyed at the O/H shop and replaced with an O-200 crank. At that point there was no choice but to go with a C-85/O-200 with O-200 Crank/Rods/Pistons. I had DDM’s build up a set of Cylinders for me, but in hind sight, I kind of wish I had just bought new ECI Titan’s. I have no real justification, just the fact that ECI’s are New and 0-time. I did all the grunt work possible; clean, inspect, assemble, in an effort to learn and keep the cost down. At the same time I think every possible difficulty, problem, issue, pain-in-the-ass at could, did happen. I feel better knowing I put the engine together, and that everything is up to MY standard. But at the same time, even though I work at a well equipped shop, when something would break or go wrong, replacements/spares required at best 1 day to obtain, but realistically 1 week. For that reason I would suggest assembling the engine at an engine shop, simply because they have rings if you break one , or a gasket you lost, or a certain stud that needs to be oversized or heli-coilled….etc…

For anybody wondering or planning on an O/H, here’s a break down on cost. About 99% of cost has been listed. When I started this project, I figured it would cost $8,000-$9,000 by doing the work myself, but that got smoked. They're where some things I could have done different and cheaper, but I did what I did.

Engine Core - $1550
O/H Lifters - $60
O/H Crank - $315 (.010 under)
O/H Case - $550
O/H Cam - $105
O/H Rods - $160 (with New Bushings)
O/H Internal Steal - $45 (gears)
Recondition Cyl - $2200
New Rocker Shafts - $96.96
Mag Flux Rockers - $120
O/H Prop Flange - $25
Bearing Set - $376
O200 STC - $300
Exhaust Core - $78
Exhaust O/H - $1062 (Hanlon Wilson)
New Name Tag - $29.95
Oil Filter Kit - $200
Silk Thread - $6.75
New Hardware - $176.61
Hub Key - $10
Rod Bolts/Nuts - $150
Oil Pressure Spring - $8
New Oil Pump - $300
O/H Gasket Set - $70
Mag Gears - $450
Mags - $761 (used)
Block Off Plates - $175
McCauley Prop - $2218 (new)
Shipping - $399.60

Total - $11,783



nkh

[zero.one.victor]

Nathan, that price isn't so bad when you consider that you have esentially a new engine. I had my C-145 OH'd about 4-1/2 years ago, and it cost me about $15K when everything was said and done. This included new cylinders, OH'd accesories (except exhaust), and some replacement parts (crankcase, cam, rods, pushrods). This is having all the engine work done by the shop, with R&R by me.
You included the price of a core-- what engine did your Champ have before? If it was a 65, you should deduct the price of that core (if ya sold it ) to come up with the true "cost" of your re-power.
I hope that new engine works out for ya. What cam is in it? And what operating limitations apply- C85 or O200? You've discussed this engine business some already on this forum and the SC site,eh?

Eric

[joea]

Nathan,

Eric brings up a good point and I would not include the price of the core in the mix. Most people will have a descent core unless the plane had been in a crash.

Is the shipping the sum of everything shipped or just when you shipped the engine?

Believe that you will have a very good and long lasting engine with this one. Only difference I could think of is to do the new cylinders but a good used set should not be a detriment either.

Joe A

[MikeB]

Nathan, at least you have the satisifaction of knowing you did it yourself and are pretty sure you know what's been done inside the engine. When you deduct the price of the prop @ $2200 and the exhaust at $1000, it gets down to a more reasonable amount. Granted, you need the prop, exhaust, etc. but they're not really part of the "overhaul".

I've related my sad engine story on this site before with the engine I bought as a "rebuilt to zero time specs" for $4500 (the low price should have been a clue) and after I installed it had several oil leaks around the push tube seals,etc. along with low compression on one hole. Finally, I pulled the jug and found standard rings on a .015 over hole (which is marked on the top of the piston, by the way). Right now it's running pretty good, although I feel another weak jug on the prop pull through and the oil pressure is marginal to my way of thinking. However, I feel I didn't come out too bad in the long run as it came with new Slick mags ($1000+), a spare prop (experimental) that I sold for $400 and I kept my old engine. But because I didn't do it myself, I have no satisifaction of knowing what was done inside.......guess that's the point.

Regarding costs: we have a club Champ on our field that's owned by 10 members (only about 5 actually fly it.......another story). It finally came up for engine overhaul after about 25 years and 1800+ hours. We pulled the engine, disassembled it, took it to Bolduc in the Twin Cities where they inspected and rebuilt the lower end (I think it was around $4500 with labor). Bolduc furnished new Superior cylinders which our AI installed in my shop. We reinstalled the engine, AI inspected and signed off the overhaul. I think the price was around $8500 for the complete job.

I've been collecting A65 parts over the past couple of years to build a spare A65. I'll probably send the parts to Bolduc for inspection and build the engine myself with my AI.

Anyway, good luck with your engine .

Mike

[zero.one.victor]

I missed Nathan's new prop & exh line items. Yeah, that knocks it down to around $9K, that's not so bad.
Jason who posts on the Supercub and T-Craft sites sez he has a bunch of A-65 parts & some complete engines available.

Eric

[Nathan K. Hammond]

The previous engine was an A65 that I plan on keeping, who knows I may get another money pit one day. Same thing with the prop, I could have clipped the 74" from the A65 down to C85 limits, but the prop worked good with the A65 and I hate to cut down props. If I had sold them, I might have gotten $2 grand out of the set, the A65 needs an overhaul to replace a lifter body.

I could have done several things cheaper; clip the prop, keep the Y-pipes, sell the extra mag gears, sell the core A-65. All that could have saved $4500 or so. But, hopefully have plans for the old engine/prop/exhaust one day.

As for opperating limits, STC owner says run it at C85 limits. Which is kind of odd, you would think you could run it up to 2700 rpm. But the data plate still says C-85-12.

The shipping is all the shipping combined, that includes sending out parts for O/H and return shipping, plus when I ordered parts that got shipped. Keep in mind nothing from Spruce was shipped since they're 12 miles away.

I'm kind of kicking my self for not getting new cylinders. Everything else is new, I should have spent the bucks. But the way I see it now, I'll fly it for 5-600 hours until it needs a Top Overhaul, then buy new ECI's.

All in all, it's been a good thing. I've learned a WHOLE LOT about engines, and assembly technique. Plus I know it's my nickle up front, that I put together. When something goes wrong, I have nobody to blame except me. But I also know that everything moving inside in darn near ballanced, .5 and .4 grams between cylinders.

nkh

[Jon B.]

I have approximately $8500 in a C-90-12 this year, maybe $9000. No, wait; it was *last* year. I hung the engine in August of '04 and flew it for the first time in July of '05. My, how time flies, even when I don't.

We had to tear it down for inspection after a prop strike (not by me!) so I was hoping for a $1500-2000 bill. It had just over 400 hours since a major so that seemed reasonable to expect.

Upon opening it, we found that a lot of the previous overhaul had been done with a pencil. The case was cracked in a main bearing web (bought an overhauled one from CSI). The acc'y case was shot - oil pump had deep scoring (bought a brand-new Continental part from a distributor). Several lifters fell apart upon removal. The crankshaft was flat. The cam needed an overhaul. One cylinder was thrown away. The previous rebuilder didn't even use new rod bolts or nuts ($27 x . The pistons were all serviceable, though. Oil pump gears were replaced. Cylinders all went to the overhaul shop; two were steel, two chrome. We swapped for all chrome - yes, I wish I'd insisted upon steel. We replaced the through bolts and studs - whatever wasn't part of the new case. Added an oil filter adapter (only $200!).

The mags were OK; they were new Slicks, with only 100 hours on them. The carb (Stromberg) had a neoprene needle, in spite of the Petersen Auto-Fuel STC ($90 for a delrin needle). I bought overhaul parts for the starter and generator at Fresno and had a local auto shop rebuild both.

I dropped it off and picked it up at the shop. None of the labor was mine.

In addition to the above, and not part of the above expense, I needed a new prop, new muffler shrouds, new flanges on all exhaust stacks, one muffler repaired, all new cooling baffles, and probably other stuff I can't recall. I bought and/or fabricated this on my own.

I have pretty much a new FWF. It looks good, starts instantly, sounds good, pulls pretty decently, and feels good. Well, now that the bills are paid, it feels good...

Jon B.

[joea]

The other thing that all of you (except Mike that is!) have is the satisfaction of knowing that everything is correct in the engine and you have done your best to make it work.

One thing that Nathan did that I applaud is to balance the engine. I used to build engines and you would not believe the difference in some components. Just a simple balance of the pistons, rods and so on makes a big difference, not to mention doing the whole mess together. Just makes the entire engine run smoother and a lot better. My next engine will be balanced without a doubt.

JoeA

[Jon B.]

One thing I would do differently today is to just haul the engine down to Darrel Bolduc. He's only a couple road hours away. Mine turned out OK but I think resale would be better with a known engine shop rebuild.

Maybe, though, the difference in cost would offset the difference in resale...

Jon B.

[Paul Agaliotis]

Jon brings up a good point. Most buyers feel comfortable when they see a known rebuilder in the logs. It,s strange in the fact that after the warranty period it,s just another rebuilt engine. They have built a reputation by doing a good job and standing behind their work.
My opinion is field overhauls are of the same quality as any other rebuild. But as Jon points out the resale value tends to be higher on known rebuilders products. This seems odd to me.
Paul

[nowlen]

paul, they(rebuilders) have deeper pockets for the inevitable problem children. bernie

[zero.one.victor]

I don't really agree that after warranty's up "it's just another rebuilt engine". Reputation counts for alot, especially when your life may depend on the product. Overly dramatic way to put it,maybe, but that doesn't make it any less true.
I had my C-145 OH'd after a connecting rod broke and poked out thru the case under #4 cylinder trying to escape. It had about 1700 hours since a major overhaul by a previous owner (an A&P). It turned out that he had installed the wrong connecting rods (from a C-125) and about half of the pushrods were wrong also (from a C-85). Evidently these parts all fit,dimensionally (lengthwise) they were OK, but the C-125 & C-85 parts are eviidently lighter built.
Did the rod break because it was too light a comstruction? Who knows? But that sure didn't help any. It could be that the engine rebuilder just re-used what what in there, so it "wasn't his fault". Bullshit! My overhauler caught the bogus parts in the course of doing a proper overhaul. That's part of why they get the "big money".
I'm sure Nathan did a good job on his engine. He sounds very knowledgable and after all, he's the one who's gonna be flying behind it. But the next owner has no way of knowing if Nathan built a good engine, or a tailgate special. That's where the OHer's rep comes into play.

Eric

[Nathan K. Hammond]

Personally, I would feel more comfortable with an owner overhaulled engine now. Given, there are some people I wouldn't by a stick of gum from. An overhaul shop puts that engine together so it will run to TBO maybe, I wan't mine to run for 3000 hrs and will build it to suit.

O/H manuals say you can have 14 grams difference between a cylinder set. But when I was weighing all the parts, I had 30 grams difference between the 4 rods, 8 grams between the pistons (which were all stamped 746 ), and the same with rings, bearings, nuts and bolts. I seriously dought most O/H shops bother weighing the parts now days.

The point is, when it's an Owner Overhaul, it's HIS NICKLE and will be treated as such. Not so with most shops.

nkh

[Ron Babos]

I'm with Nathan on this one. I was sold a mint condition case from a well known engine shop. The #1 cam bore was worn out, and cylinder decks were not level. It was painted , ready to assemble. Makes you wonder who's engine this would have been if I hadn't come along . I did the machine work at the shop, and is now mint.
Ron

[Paul Agaliotis]

In my earlier post I was trying to imply that the field overhauled engines can be of the same quality as professionaly overhauled engines. In Eric,s case incorrect rods were installed,which was an assembly error. If you were to present this same situation to a major rebuilder that had rebuilt the engine, Its my feeling the outcome would have been the same. The most they would do is prorate it to overhaul.
In the past the flight school overhauled all of our engines in-house. It was cheaper and we have better control of the product. The Lycomings routinely went 3000 to 6000 hrs on the bottom ends, cylinders were replaced as required. We now purchase the engines either from the factory or rebuilders. While we have only used these engines for a few thousand hours, from the non-routine work I am seeing the engines will not match the field overhauls records.
Paul