I've read a few comments in different strings about raising the tail and running along on the main gear before liftoff.
In a Champ this is completely unnecessary. The easiest takeoff is with neutral or near neutral trim and no stick pressure at all. Some trim configurations may be different, but once the proper trim is found it is the same deal.
In other words, let it take off as soon as it is ready. This wing likes to fly.
The longer you stay on the ground the more likely you are to get into trouble.
If you want to stay low to pick up speed, fine. It is much easier to accelerate in the air than on the ground.
Raising the tail and running on the main gear almost always increases the takeoff run. Most pilots will raise the tail too far so that the Champ is actually held on the ground instead of flying.
Even with a X-wind there is no need for holding it down, just keep the upwind wing down until it lifts off. It is much easier to crab in the air than use cross controls to keep it straight on the wheels.
Of course this is my opinion but it was the way I instructed for many years and involves the least amount of fuss.
Takeoffs and Such
Takeoffs and Such
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
takeoffs
gusc: I raise the tail to not let the oleos extend. If they do on a field that has many ups and downs in it you're in for one h of a ride, as in bouncing up and down and not have quite enough speed to lift off. It really looks and feels ugly.
Ron
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
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Nathan K. Hammond
- Posts: 2371
- Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 00:22
- Location: Danville, KY (DVK)
- Contact:
I tend to raise the tail to plant the mains; much like Ron. Operating off of grass/dirt strips 90% of the time, if I keep it in 3 point, I usually get launched into the air by a defect in the runway. That leaves me high and dry, which makes me feeling kind of uneasy. So standard opperating procedure is to raise the tail to asure we fly when I say so.
But when goofing off or trying to get airborne as quick as possible (soft field) leaving it in 3 point does get me off the ground the quickest.
nkh
But when goofing off or trying to get airborne as quick as possible (soft field) leaving it in 3 point does get me off the ground the quickest.
nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK
Super 85-12F @ DVK
As is often the case I didn't do a good job of explaining.
I didn't mean not to lift the tail, I meant to let the airplane lift the tail which it will do if trimmed right. It is absolutely true that the three point attitude is too nose high for good takeoffs unless you happen to have a high TW.
Some airplanes will do it well and some won't. My Stinson did this very soon after power was applied and it was a pleasure to watch it make smooth takeoffs. All I did was steer! It did a far smoother takeoff than I ever could.
I haven't flown my new Champ enough to know the exact trim setting but I will.
If you get launched prematurely in the proper takeoff attitude that is not a problem unless you are drifting. Upwind wing down will cure that. The same thing happens in nose draggers and the solution is the same, hold takeoff pitch attitude.
I always taught my students to take off in a nose dragger the same as if they were in a taildragger, and land the same way, nose high.
If you insist on planting the mains try letting them float rather than forcing them into strut compression. This is almost the same as flying and should not extend the takeoff run. Again, no drift is allowed but it isn't as much a problem as it is with the mains firmly planted on the runway.
Ron,
If you're getting some wild bounces you're probably holding too much down elevator. If you let the plane float on the gear the gear will bounce, not the airplane. It is a matter of holding the pitch constant, hard to do when the plane is accelerating and trying to change pitch. This is the same idea in a bounced landing, just maintain the proper landing pitch and it will settle down.
Attitude is everything in flying. I use the angle of the underside of the wing as my reference both in takeoffs and landing because it easier than trying to use the nose unless you have a very distinct horizon ahead.
I keep my Champ on my farm. I don't have an airstrip, I just picked up the rocks and keep it mowed. It is really a hay field with old tires as runway markers. Perfect for a Champ. It was a bit of a squeeze for the Navion Rangemaster.
I didn't mean not to lift the tail, I meant to let the airplane lift the tail which it will do if trimmed right. It is absolutely true that the three point attitude is too nose high for good takeoffs unless you happen to have a high TW.
Some airplanes will do it well and some won't. My Stinson did this very soon after power was applied and it was a pleasure to watch it make smooth takeoffs. All I did was steer! It did a far smoother takeoff than I ever could.
I haven't flown my new Champ enough to know the exact trim setting but I will.
If you get launched prematurely in the proper takeoff attitude that is not a problem unless you are drifting. Upwind wing down will cure that. The same thing happens in nose draggers and the solution is the same, hold takeoff pitch attitude.
I always taught my students to take off in a nose dragger the same as if they were in a taildragger, and land the same way, nose high.
If you insist on planting the mains try letting them float rather than forcing them into strut compression. This is almost the same as flying and should not extend the takeoff run. Again, no drift is allowed but it isn't as much a problem as it is with the mains firmly planted on the runway.
Ron,
If you're getting some wild bounces you're probably holding too much down elevator. If you let the plane float on the gear the gear will bounce, not the airplane. It is a matter of holding the pitch constant, hard to do when the plane is accelerating and trying to change pitch. This is the same idea in a bounced landing, just maintain the proper landing pitch and it will settle down.
Attitude is everything in flying. I use the angle of the underside of the wing as my reference both in takeoffs and landing because it easier than trying to use the nose unless you have a very distinct horizon ahead.
I keep my Champ on my farm. I don't have an airstrip, I just picked up the rocks and keep it mowed. It is really a hay field with old tires as runway markers. Perfect for a Champ. It was a bit of a squeeze for the Navion Rangemaster.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
takeoffs
gusc: I raise the tail with forward stick. The sooner it comes up the better. Letting the stab do it from airspeed is where you will get the plane light on the gear due to airspeed and get the problem I described. It just takes too long to wait for it. If you fly off pavement or a level strip, you may never experience the violent bounce. Did a take off at a flyin once like that , looked like an idiot of course. Standard proceedure now is force the tail up, gain speed with no angle of attack on the wing and then maker her fly when she's more than ready.
On smooth runways , on occaision will even do a three point takeoff, or with the tailwheel just off the runway, or as you described. The trouble is, how many smooth level grass strips are there?
Ron
On smooth runways , on occaision will even do a three point takeoff, or with the tailwheel just off the runway, or as you described. The trouble is, how many smooth level grass strips are there?
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
Ron,
Purely a personal choice. No rule that says one can't use the method of his own choice I just prefer to get off the ground as soon as the airplane is ready which only it knows.
The hazard with my method is drifting away from the runway before starting to climb but that is a matter of control. When I want to accelerate for obstacle clearing or better climb I do it just a few inches off the ground.
As I said I haven't flown this Champ enough to know what it does so I may change with more experience. I remember flying my first Champ in PR where we always had a trade wind and it was off the ground is just a few feet, especially when I flew solo from the back.
I don't use the force nose down method on takeoffs or wheel landings. It always felt to me as if I were forcing the airplane to do something instead of cooperating with its flying nature.
On landing I find that if I keep the bottom of the wing perfectly level and control AS and sink with power I can make a nice smooth wheel landing without ever changing the attitude. Reducing the power just after touchdown allows the tail to come down when it is ready. This works especially well with spring gear. A good bounce on spring gear is a thrill, you always get more back than you give! I learned this during my Citabria checkout years ago.
Purely a personal choice. No rule that says one can't use the method of his own choice I just prefer to get off the ground as soon as the airplane is ready which only it knows.
The hazard with my method is drifting away from the runway before starting to climb but that is a matter of control. When I want to accelerate for obstacle clearing or better climb I do it just a few inches off the ground.
As I said I haven't flown this Champ enough to know what it does so I may change with more experience. I remember flying my first Champ in PR where we always had a trade wind and it was off the ground is just a few feet, especially when I flew solo from the back.
I don't use the force nose down method on takeoffs or wheel landings. It always felt to me as if I were forcing the airplane to do something instead of cooperating with its flying nature.
On landing I find that if I keep the bottom of the wing perfectly level and control AS and sink with power I can make a nice smooth wheel landing without ever changing the attitude. Reducing the power just after touchdown allows the tail to come down when it is ready. This works especially well with spring gear. A good bounce on spring gear is a thrill, you always get more back than you give! I learned this during my Citabria checkout years ago.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
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mike newall
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 06:32
- Location: UK
- Contact:
With Gus on this one 100% !
A Champ will get off in a shorter distance by leaving the stick in a neutral position with the trim set at a mid point.
I fly off 1200@ of average grass, it has a bump at the 500' point and that always gets me airbourne !
Interestingly., my Citabria likes a bit of forward stick or the rigid undercarriage does start to bounce somewhat.
I watched my buddy and a friend try and get airbourne in my Champ by pushing the stick forward from the get go - they had about 6' clearance on the stone wall at the end of the strip - I had words after !
A Champ will get off in a shorter distance by leaving the stick in a neutral position with the trim set at a mid point.
I fly off 1200@ of average grass, it has a bump at the 500' point and that always gets me airbourne !
Interestingly., my Citabria likes a bit of forward stick or the rigid undercarriage does start to bounce somewhat.
I watched my buddy and a friend try and get airbourne in my Champ by pushing the stick forward from the get go - they had about 6' clearance on the stone wall at the end of the strip - I had words after !
takeoffs
gus/mike: It's not a question of shorter takeoffs as we all know a (near) three point will give the shortest ground run on a smooth runway. A bump at 500 feet will launch you but it will be positive. Add a bump at 2-300 feet with the plane almost ready to fly but not quite enough and it's a totally different animal. It will get ugly. (Compleat Tail Dragger Pilot) book has reference to the no bounce gear and takeoffs. Forward stick, to not let the gear extend too soon. Not quite as bad with standard oleo but it will still hop if the field conditions are right. Length of the field will determine my method of takeoff, short I'll use the tail low method, but with plenty of room I use forward stick and rotate with plenty of speed. Last time I actually looked it was around 45 mph. I'm not quite sure of this but I think from what playing around I have done the shortest take of distance is forward stick, and as soon as the stick has to be nuetral , rotate and it will stagger off. Dragging the tailwheel on takeoff seems to use up more distance while waiting for the stab to lift the tail. Some day I'll have to measure it and find out, unless someone out there already has.
Ron
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.
Mike,
Try this with your Citabria;
Find a nice long smooth runway, go to takeoff power until the tail comes up and will stay up, place the underside of the wing parallel with the horizon.
If you leave the ground reduce power until it runs along just skippin the wheels on the runway without bouncing or flying.
If you can't do this try small changes in the wing angle with the horizon until you can.
Remember this angle. It will allow smooth wheel landings controlled only by throttle. It will also allow taking off without loading the spring gear. As you well know if you put any energy into that gear you get it back with a vengence.
I developed this method while trying to master the spring gear of the first Citabria I ever flew. I would run the full length of the 10,000' Navy runway until I had it down cold.
Once I discovered this the Citabria and I got along just fine!
Ron,
I said previously that I didn't mean taking off in a three pt attitude nor do I advocate dragging the tailwheel on takeoff.
Taking off tail low does not mean three-pt attitude or dragging the TW, it means not taking off with the airplane in a level attitude. DC-3s use this attitude for all landings and I always used it in my Stinson.
This attitude will give the shortest ground run with a smooth liftoff, no mushing and will give a positive climb.
This same attitude should also be used by nose draggers to keep loads off the nosewheel and will, again, result in the shortest ground run and a positive climb. I always start the takeoff run in a nose dragger with slight back elevator pressure.
I've never flown the no-bounce gear so I can't speak to methods for it.
The thing that causes big bounces is letting the nose pitch change. If you hit a bump too early in the takeoff run to climb this will usually cause the nose to pitch up, this is what causes the excitement. If you hold the pitch constant with elevator this won't happen but you have to quickly move the stick whatever it takes to maintain constant pitch. If you do this the airplane will settle back onto the runway gently and climb out when it is ready. It does this because at that point it is flying more than it is rolling.
Same goes for bounced landings except that you must add a touch of power to maintain constant pitch because you may have run out of elevator power. This will allow it to settle down gently. If you don't add that touch of power it will probably land ok but maybe harder than you want-depending on the size of the bounce.
I never taught a student to hold an airplane on the ground with elevator force. Maybe under very high winds and gusts, but I've never found it necessary. Even then it is better to get into the air and accelerate a few inches above the runway while maintaining proper runway position and direction.
Sorry this got so long, it is much easier to do in person.
Try this with your Citabria;
Find a nice long smooth runway, go to takeoff power until the tail comes up and will stay up, place the underside of the wing parallel with the horizon.
If you leave the ground reduce power until it runs along just skippin the wheels on the runway without bouncing or flying.
If you can't do this try small changes in the wing angle with the horizon until you can.
Remember this angle. It will allow smooth wheel landings controlled only by throttle. It will also allow taking off without loading the spring gear. As you well know if you put any energy into that gear you get it back with a vengence.
I developed this method while trying to master the spring gear of the first Citabria I ever flew. I would run the full length of the 10,000' Navy runway until I had it down cold.
Once I discovered this the Citabria and I got along just fine!
Ron,
I said previously that I didn't mean taking off in a three pt attitude nor do I advocate dragging the tailwheel on takeoff.
Taking off tail low does not mean three-pt attitude or dragging the TW, it means not taking off with the airplane in a level attitude. DC-3s use this attitude for all landings and I always used it in my Stinson.
This attitude will give the shortest ground run with a smooth liftoff, no mushing and will give a positive climb.
This same attitude should also be used by nose draggers to keep loads off the nosewheel and will, again, result in the shortest ground run and a positive climb. I always start the takeoff run in a nose dragger with slight back elevator pressure.
I've never flown the no-bounce gear so I can't speak to methods for it.
The thing that causes big bounces is letting the nose pitch change. If you hit a bump too early in the takeoff run to climb this will usually cause the nose to pitch up, this is what causes the excitement. If you hold the pitch constant with elevator this won't happen but you have to quickly move the stick whatever it takes to maintain constant pitch. If you do this the airplane will settle back onto the runway gently and climb out when it is ready. It does this because at that point it is flying more than it is rolling.
Same goes for bounced landings except that you must add a touch of power to maintain constant pitch because you may have run out of elevator power. This will allow it to settle down gently. If you don't add that touch of power it will probably land ok but maybe harder than you want-depending on the size of the bounce.
I never taught a student to hold an airplane on the ground with elevator force. Maybe under very high winds and gusts, but I've never found it necessary. Even then it is better to get into the air and accelerate a few inches above the runway while maintaining proper runway position and direction.
Sorry this got so long, it is much easier to do in person.
Gus Causbie
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
Ash Flat, AR
N83564, 7AC-2235, A65-8
The easiest takeoff is with neutral or near neutral trim and no stick pressure at all.
With my little tires (8.50s), the shortest takeoff - not necessarily the easiest - was with the stick all the way back on anything but very soft surfaces. I'm running 31" Bushwheels now and it likes just a LITTLE forward pressure. The tailwheel never comes up untill the wing flies, but getting it lighter gets me flying quicker. Forcing the tail a couple inches up - as I often do in big rocks, etc. - costs me a couple hundred feet or more, but I get to re-use my tailwheel.
Even with a X-wind there is no need for holding it down
I've landed in crosswinds that I couldn't completely compensate for with rudder. Gets a little exiting while the tail is light, moreso on landing than taking off. There may not be a need to keep the stick back on a good runway with a light breeze, but on a narrow rocky beach with a 25 knot crosswind there sure is.
With my little tires (8.50s), the shortest takeoff - not necessarily the easiest - was with the stick all the way back on anything but very soft surfaces. I'm running 31" Bushwheels now and it likes just a LITTLE forward pressure. The tailwheel never comes up untill the wing flies, but getting it lighter gets me flying quicker. Forcing the tail a couple inches up - as I often do in big rocks, etc. - costs me a couple hundred feet or more, but I get to re-use my tailwheel.
Even with a X-wind there is no need for holding it down
I've landed in crosswinds that I couldn't completely compensate for with rudder. Gets a little exiting while the tail is light, moreso on landing than taking off. There may not be a need to keep the stick back on a good runway with a light breeze, but on a narrow rocky beach with a 25 knot crosswind there sure is.
takeoffs and such
Sure, all this will work, but come to my airport on a gusty day with lots of mechanical turbulence and I think the techniques will change really fast. 99% of the time takeoff distance means nothing. Having sufficiant control when leaving the ground is more important to me, escpecially with a 65 hp. Takeoffs shouldnt be done with tail low with the above airport conditions. The wing flys too soon to give a safety margin with the gusts, and the power is inadiquate to save it if you fall back to the runway.
What I'm trying to say with all this is, none of the takeoff methods in previous posts are wrong. However a good tailwheel pilot will modify the method as conditions dictate for takeoffs . Short, soft field, gusty etc.
Ron
What I'm trying to say with all this is, none of the takeoff methods in previous posts are wrong. However a good tailwheel pilot will modify the method as conditions dictate for takeoffs . Short, soft field, gusty etc.
Ron
Before you believe anything I say, check with two more people. If they agree, I must be right.