Hydraulic brake conversion on L-16...

[low-n-slow]

Looking for input from other champ owners who have converted from goodyear mechanical brakes to cleveland Hydraulics. Where is the best place to purchase? Pitfalls or things to be aware of?


Thanks in advance

[Paul Agaliotis]

My L16 has the hydraulic brakes installed. The rear master cylinder mount is the one area where you could get into trouble. It will require some welding. I have never seen any bolt on type mounts. The rest of the installation is pretty straight forward. If you could look at a oleo gear Citabria, the set-up is very similar. My reservoir is located on the left hand side of the firewall in the engine compartment.
Paul
L16A 47-1108

[low-n-slow]

Paul,

Do you mind sharing where you purchased your kit?

Thanks

[Paul Agaliotis]

I manufactured all of the items required. I dont know if any one offers a "kit" for the installation. The Citabria items will work. I buy all of my specialty items needed for repairs from ACA. The quality is first rate and most items are in stock or quickly made.
You might consider installing Cleveland mechanical brakes. They would be a bolt in item. They are still a little pricey but work very well when properly maintained. If the plane is apart for repair than the hydraulic brakes would be no problem to install.
If you are near SFO I can show you the installation on a Citabria in the shop now.
Paul

[Tim Juhl]

I installed the Wag Aero (formerly Safe Air Repair) Cleveland wheel and hydraulic brake kit. I can attest to a dramatic increase in performance and reliability over the Goodyear mechanicals. Wag Aero has an STC for the install so no problem with the feds. They're not cheap, but I'm glad I made the change.

The install required Welding two tabs to support the master cylinders. Removal of the floorboards and opening the bottom of the wrap around give you all the access you need to do the job.

Warnings I received that the Clevelands might be too much brake for the Champ proved groundless. On landing roll-out from a solo flight I had deer run across in front of me and I used maximum braking without putting her on her nose.

Tim

[MikeB]

Tim, I gather you used the heel brake conversion kit (?) How did you go about welding the brackets for the master cylinders? I.E. Wire feed or rod and torch? I only ask because right above you is the gas tank (gulp) which has to be a concern. I can see that removing the floorboards and opening the wrap around should give you access. In my younger (and much more foolish days) I used to weld near the fuel tanks by putting a wet rag over the cap or vent. Not sure I'm that brave anymore.

On the other hand, I agree that the Cleveland conversion is the best alternative to trying to keep the Goodyears going, all things considered.
No matter what I try, my Goodyears are marginal at best.....no chance of nosing over with them, but then I don't use the brakes a lot either.

Thanks for the information.

Mike

Mike

[low-n-slow]

Tim,

Wag has a kit for about $2700, does this sound like the same kit you installed? I have the plane disassembled and am in the process of recovering, replacing sheetmetal etc. Now would be the time to make the conversion....

Anybody know where I could find a 3 piece top cowl for a L-16A- Actually it is more of a "B".......

Thanks for the information

[Tim Juhl]

Yes, I purposely kept the heel brakes. I'm used to them and they're enough out of the way that there is little chance of landing with the brakes on The toe brake conversion costs more and involves more modification.

The tabs weld to the same member that the axle struts tie into, which is straight down from the instrument panel. We used a TIG welder which was the safest approach in this situation. Wet rags in the fuselage protected the fabric. I made sure the gas tank was full and there were no cockpit area leaks. Also had a fan on to move air away from the welding site. I have pix of the install if anyone is interested.

As to the three piece top cowl on the L-16. Those were made up in the field by adding piano hinges to the factory supplied one piece cowl. That's what I did with my L bird. What engine are you using "low-n-slow"?

Tim - in snowy Michigan

[MikeB]

Tim, can you post your installation to the group? I'd be interested in seeing it (or you can send it to my email address off the member list).
I think a lot of us with GY brakes will eventually have to face the conversion.

[low-n-slow]

Tim,

Engine on my L16A is a C85. It has had electrical and a wing tank added to it so in some aspects it is a cross between an "A" and "B". If you could post pictures of the brake install, that would be great. As far as the Top cowl goes, I had not thought of buying the one piece and just cutting and adding the piano hinges to make it a 3 piece.... Did you use anything special for the hinges? Did you spot weld or rivot the hinges?

Thanks for the help

[Tim Juhl]

I'll put some pix together of the brake install and make a pdf. If you want a copy, email me at juhl@avci.net

As to the cowl - I used extruded aluminum piano hinge MS20001P - I believe a 2 inch width - I used standard rivets spaced about an inch apart. If you are an EAA member there is an excellent article on installing hinges on their website at <http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilder ... #TopOfPage>

I installed my hinges 3 inches to either side of the centerline. I also had to add a couple of machine screws to hold the corners of the center strip down. Nothing fancy, I just put some clipnuts on the lip of the cowling.


Tim

[low-n-slow]

Just wanted to post a note saying that after flying with the cleaveland hydraulic brake conversion kit for 6 months that it was the single best thing we did during the L16 project. It was very hard to spend the $2k plus for the kit from Wag-Aero but now am convinced it was worth it.

[WWhunter]

Jon,

Hello, I met you this summer in my search for some brake parts. I live near Itasca State Park. I have a 7AC with an O-235 and 26" Goodyears on it and am in dire need of better brakes. The Van-Sickle (Goodyears) work fairly good as long as I keep adjusting them. By that I mean I have to do it quite often. I have checked everything over good and the only thing I can figure is I am a little hard on them and cause the cable to slip.

I did get some replacement parts that I was looking for from a very gracious guy from this site.

Just wondering....Was it fairly simple install on the brake kit?

Keith

PS. You'll have to fly up sometime next summer when I get back.

[Tugaske2]

I am rebuilding a second 7AC Champ (0-200 with C-90 cam)...I used wheels and hydraulic drum brakes off of a PA-22 (same numbers listed in Univair), and I used Citabria master cylinders (stronger than the thinner 7EC master cylinders)...

However instead of welding those tabs on the square tubing where the axles bolt to and then using long extensions (to the front heel brakes) which put a lot of twist and torque on the master cylinder which causes a lot of the shafts to break, etc..also this is a problem on the 7EC, Champ Sky Trac and Champ Challenger)..

What I did is weld a piece of square tubing horizontally farther forward ( \______/ shape) , then put tabs on and in that way there is no need for those long extensions and therefore less stress on the master cylinder shafts or extensions..The hydraulic lines and reservoir are off of a 7EC....

Hope you don't mind me sharing this with you...ps..if anybody needs 7EC hydraulic master brake cylinders..I have sold two but have four left..

[joea]

Tug, (a name would be nice)

Do you have any photos that we could post of this? Sounds like a nice modification and something that others would want to put on their planes.

Joe