National Aeronca Association Bulletin Board

Grumps wrote:Joe--

That is why I got my A&P 50 years ago and my IA 40 years ago. Now I have the gras field and own fuel to go with it. Just looked at a Champ that went to one of those advertised places for an annual while changing it to larger tires. First thing I found was a cracked break lining that had eons of brake dust and dirt in it along with skimpy bearing grease . They had recently put tires on it and must have used a whole can of talcum powder on the tire and tube. It was on the tube and in the tire lumpy and had so much it affected the balance of the tire. The balance point of the tire in the wrong location. Don't know how much he paid. Some annual write offs look like fairy tales. Many people speak --" is it legal" while flying around with a Brackett air filter not documented.

Doug

Doug:

Do you consider flying around with an undocumented Brackett filter dangerous? The only thing that separates this machine from one with the 337 is that piece of paper. They're otherwise identical.

There's a world of difference between unapproved and unsafe. Putting, for example, Cleveland wheels and brakes on a Champ without an STC or field approval is hardly unsafe. Those parts are far more reliable than 60-year-old Goodyear, Goodrich or whatever originals it had. The aforementioned Brackett air filter is also an improvement.

Adding 8.00 or 8.50 tires is no big deal, either. How 'bout a solid-state voltage regulator? None of this will kill me.

These are reasons why, if I own another aircraft, it'll be experimental.

And, I apologize for the thread drift. My local FBO is a Mooney shop. They have no idea how Champs, Chiefs and Cubs work. I do use them for non-specific things, though, and buy their gas.


Jon B.

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Everyone has a story of what did happen at the local FBO. I would like to put a little spin on the subject.
If you have a Champ due for Annual and no work is accomplished other than the routine inspection. What do you feel the cost should be?
Paul

I just did an annual on my Chief and there were few defects. What there were I corrected. The IA spent 4 hours inspecting everything, so it was not a "pencil whipped" annual, and I signed off a 100 hour beforehand. Cost was $100.

If it was a non-A&P doing this would expect it to be more expensive but not that much more so. Possibly $200 but not too much more if the owner was doing most of the work.

Let a old shop foreman and service manager (truck: but what the heck) jump in here. Part of the problem with many service departments is they tend not to communicate with the customer and the work orders are poorly written to reflect the work that was accomplished. For example: I had to deal with a irate customer who wanted me to adjust the bill for a 'repair transmission" item. Seems like the bill was somewhere in the $600 range but there was no documentation on the work that was done. After looking over the work order and chasing down the mechanic I found the transmission was completely overhauled. New parts pretty much told me that. In fact, after thinking about it, I believe the work order entry was "Fix transmission" . Now what does that tell you? Once I explained to the customer what was done, he settled down.

When I ran the night shift, more than once I called a customer at 11-12 at night to tell them that more work needed (thus more cost) to be done before I could set the truck out so he could pick it up in the morning.

Point is: communication is the key. After I entered community college eduction, I taught classes in service and shop management among others.
I always stressed complete documentation of work accomplished and good communication with the customer. For liability purposes if nothing else.
Most customers will understand more cost or time if they're informed before they're presented with a bill two or three times what they expected.
There's no excuse for a customer expecting a bill for $3000 and getting one for over $20,000.


Having said that: after I started flying and owned my own plane I learned quickly that you don't drop your plane off for a annual and expect to get it back on time. Once I dropped the Cherokee off for a annual inspection and told the IA I was going on vacation and would be back in two weeks. He assured me it would be done. Came back two week later and he hadn't even started on it and it was another two weeks before I got it back with nothing accomplished except the normal annual. He also left the front wheel loose by the way. If you've owned a plane for any amount of time you can probably relate.

Ever since I only do owner assisted annuals. Personally, having rebuilt a couple of Champs I could probably do the annual as well as the IA but he has the paperwork and I don't. Although, I was a certified diesel mechanic and hold all kinds of other endorsements including federal truck inspection.

Well, anyway I probably have too much computer time on my hands at present as I'm sitting at my son and daughter in law's place in Texas and also spending quality time with our first grandchild.


Mike Berg

Jon B.

No I don't think it dangerous to use the Bracket filter--the only thing I meant is--if you have an accident your insurance company and the FAA might look at it differently. There are current ball valves that are more reliable than the old Imperial fuel shut off valve, but they are not legal off the shelf. If you are selling or buying an airplane the mechanic doing the prebuy (if he knows what he is looking at) will call attention to these things and then you have the mechanic and prespective buyer wanting to knock the price because of these "illegal" items.

With these old airplanes that were built with hardware store items that were current at the time and simple methods the current mind set of insurance, sue and etc, is never ending. Years ago when I got started we did what ever was necessary to keep the old airplane flying, did not have insurance (didn't have anythng so didn't need it) and nobody got upset.

Today we have a new set of buyers with a different mindset--we have A&P's that have no experience with old airplanes--we have auto mechanics that make much more than A&P's and we have owners that demand time consuming things that they have no idea of the time involved--thereby creating a zone of misinformation.

Everyone owning an airplane like a Champ should get involved, find a mechanic that will work with you and thank him or her.

Doug

Doug:

OK. I apologize. I misunderstood.

I've often thought that, if I wanted to fly, owned an airplane, kept it at home, and couldn't pass a physical, I'd just say screw the feds and fly anyway.

That, of course, would mean no insurance. Which means no passengers. And no flying where you could damage anything on the ground. No fly-ins, etc. All one could do is putt around the area. That might be enough, though.

Jon B.

Jon -

As long as you identify that you may not pass the physical before you apply and get denied, you can do just what you said, legally.

It's called Sport Pilot - manyof us are doing it, carrying passengers, have insurance, and are legal all of the way.

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Everyone has a story of what did happen at the local FBO. I would like to put a little spin on the subject.
If you have a Champ due for Annual and no work is accomplished other than the routine inspection. What do you feel the cost should be?
Paul

For my Chief (A65, no electric), I strip it down, do all the usual (wheel bearings, oil change, lub pullys, hinges, etc.). My IA then comes to my hanger (has about an hr. drive) . We do a compression check, he looks it all over, crawls under panel, looks inside wing inspection holes, fuselage, engine compartment, etc.

I pull plugs while he does all that. He cleans plugs (don't really need it with mogas though). I assure him, assuming that they are, that my static run up and mag drops are "right on" where they should be. I don't want the mags timing messed with (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). There are no reoccuring ADs at the moment. He has the records of the previous annuals. He does paperwork and logs, occasionally pointing out something I might want to do before the next annual. This takes about 3 or 4 hours. He charges $150 for this. I give him $200 (some extra gas money).

I then put it all back together. I don't want him or anybody else tightening the various small screws that hold all the various plates and stuff on. Everytime they do, something gets stripped.

Anyhow, that's my story...and I'm happy to have him available. roger

Roger -

Here's a true story of a case I'm defending right now. Two dead in a Bonanza, CFI in the right seat survived, but is paralyzed. He's suing everyone in sight: owner of airplane at time of accident, former owner, IA who signed of the last three annuals, Beech, Continental, JPI, fuel bladder manuffacturer, fuel injection system manufacturer, seat belt and harness manufacturer, and a host of others.

Former owner elected to do what we call "T hangar annuals" with an IA who came, inspected, did a little work, signed the books, got paid and left. Of course, this IA has no insurance. Sounds like maybe your situation?

So, former owner and this IA are struggling to defend themselves and pay atty. fees, since they have no insurance company providing a defense. Rumor has it that the financial stress is causing the IA's current divorce proceedings.

Complain about the legal system till the cows come home, but this is the reality of a T hangar annual if your airplane is ever in an accident, even long after you sell it and thought you had heard and seen the last of it. Personally, no one touches my plane who is not adequately insured.

Jerry Eichenberger wrote: Complain about the legal system till the cows come home, but this is the reality of a T hangar annual if your airplane is ever in an accident, even long after you sell it and thought you had heard and seen the last of it. Personally, no one touches my plane who is not adequately insured.

There is a very good reason why I will not own the Aeronca Sedan that I will be flying to Phoenix in 10 days. It will be owned by a trust that is nice enough to let me fly the airplane whenever I wish.

Anyone wanting to sue can sue the trust all day long.

Joe -

Don't forget that your arrangement offers only limited protection. The pilot is always still personally responsible for his own actions or omissions.

No amount of corporations, LLCs or trusts can protect you completely.

Get adequate insurance, please.

Jerry Eichenberger wrote:Roger -

Here's a true story of a case I'm defending right now.

Jerry,
Oh, I don't doubt any of the above. We seem to be surrounded by that mentality. However, some days "you just got to pay your money and take your chances"....within reason.

My Chief flying, to me, falls into my " within reason" category. My option would be to taxi it down to the corporate A&P hanger, as did my Luscombe 8E hanger neighbor, and 2 weeks later retrieve it, annualed, leaving $1600 behind (each year).

I can either choose to do that...and not be able to justify (afford) to fly the very simple, no complex systems Chief, or try to keep doing it my way...and get to fly it. I can't have both. (Let me emphasis here that I do feel that the higher level of complexity the aircraft, then the higher level of complex...and expensive maintenance it will require. Again, I'm talking Chief).

Of course, as they say, maybe if I can't run with the big dogs, then maybe I shouldn't be owning a plane. Maybe. After Aeronca flying for almost 50 years now though, I just hate to give it up. An example of mentality...I have a close relative...local lawyer, who heard me talking about the hangers at my airport, of which I have one.

I said that I was fortunate to get one of the 30 new ones because of there being about another 100 persons on the waiting list to get one also. He was dead serious when he wondered why they were not bid at higher and higher monthly rates until only the last 30 wealthiest pilots remained standing as takers.

He cannot understand why the city would not charge as much as the market will bear. He is considering approaching the city and making an issue of this. It's a different mentality. roger

T hangar annuals and those who sign them off really bother me in another way too. They just "ain't fair" to the FBO trying to run a real business and pay overhead.

The guy who does T hangar, or as we also say "bed of a pickup" annuals has no overhead. No insurance usually, no rent to the airport for a shop, no utilities, no workers compensation premiums, often no maintenance library to maintain - nothing.

Use these guys if you want, but then realize that a real shop could never compete with them pricewise. So, you may get a cheap annual, but when trouble comes, you're on your own.

As you can tell, these guys do upset me. With our rent to the airport authority at $3500 a month, insurance over $20,000 a year, thousands in maintenance library expense, utility bills larger than a mortgage payment on a normal house, etc., etc. just realize what you're doing to the FBO you may need to depend upon when you hire one of these nomads to sign off your annual.

Can't disagree with anything Roger says either. While I'm at the point in my life where I probably have a few assets, my income is not that great either. If it was, I wouldn't be driving a school bus with a load of screaming elementary kids part time to pay for my flying and building hobby. I'm not sure what the difference would be if I were to take my Champ to my IA's shop where the phone rings and he has to drop everything and answer it. Or another customer comes in and needs something at critical time (like torquing the spark plugs) and he forgets where he's at. Seems like it would actually be better in my nice clean shop where both of us work on the plane together and possibly discuss any repairs or improvements that need to be made. and as Roger says, I pay him whatever he thinks if fair plus a little extra. Also, sometimes the weather is poor and I can't make it to his shop on the assigned day.

He's in his 60's now and I want to keep him healthy and happy .

Mike Berg

Roger -

As to bidding for T hangar rents, that's silly. Ask your relative if your city has a municipal golf course. Ask him if the prime Tee times are auctioned off to the highest bidder, with less fortunate people playing only at off times, or maybe not all at on weekends. What about access to a municipal swimming pool, city recreational center? - the list is endless.

Does your city have any lake or resevoir with boat docks? If so, how are they handled? We do in Columbus, and they are given out by pure lottery each spring, as the demand far exceeds the supply. No different for T hangars at a municipal airport.

Jerry Eichenberger wrote:T hangar annuals and those who sign them off really bother me in another way too. They just "ain't fair" to the FBO trying to run a real business and pay overhead.

Jerry,

I truely do know what your saying. We're kinda caught in a case of "life sometimes just isn't fair". But it really comes down to this. I cannot do it your way. I can't. Do do so, I can't fly. So, since I can't afford your costs, and I clearly do understand why they are so necessary, really, I have to choose. I want to keep on flying, so I try to keep the machine I fly as simple as possible, so I don't feel too bad using the back of the pickup guy. I hope you have a bunch of the more complex aircraft customers available to keep you afloat. When they buy that level of complexity, they know what keeping it running is going to cost.

My other hanger neighbor (dentist) just traded his Bonanza for a Baron yesterday. He spent $22K on fuel at the FBO this past year and also lived at the corporate A&P's shop half the time it seemed. He's a happy pilot and none of that bothers him. I'm happy for him also. Wish I had a Baron...but know why I don't and never will. It's just the way it is.

Reference one thing Mike mentioned, for my Luscombe neighbor's $1600 annual, in addition to an annual, he got the following. Right after the annual, while landing, his rudders froze solid, fortunately in a straight ahead position. With a little bit of crosswind, and no rudder movement available, he said he was a brake mashing fool until he could get it stopped. Turns out....bolt holding tailwheel assemble, after being removed and replaced at annual, was in and jammed at an angle, not really holding the leaf spring snug. It slipped on landing allowing the tailwheel to tilt up and back, jamming it into the bottom of the rudder. Fortunately, only damage was about a 1/2 inch dent in the rudder.

As Mike said, "ooops...there's the phone...oh, yea I'll get those plugs now...gotta remember to get back to this...what was that?" Nothing personal here....just reality, as I see it. roger