Who got the Best New Production Cylinders?

[Nathan K. Hammond]

I've been slowly gathering momentum to rebuild a C-85. The Cylinders that came with the project are in rough shape, needing some parts and bored 15 out. For the cost of bringing them up to new limits, I can almost buy a new set. So here's the question, who's got the best cylinders on the market. I talked with the folks at AERO in PA, and they really didn't have a favorite. They only told me that the wait for Superior Cylinders was about one YEAR !!!

So it's down to ECI or OEM (Continental). It's a 2-3 month wait for ECI and only a month for OEM's. The cost is about the same for both, as long as you go with the old style from Continental. (A couple years ago they came out with a new push-rod housing, that is much like a Lyc. It's a nice setup, but cost an extra $120 per cylinder, and I don't think it's worth that much.)

Anybody got some input on ECI Nickle, ECI Steel, or Old Style Continental cylinders?

nkh

[Ron Babos]

Nathan: Went through the same thing with my a-65. To get reconditioned oems the price was rediculus. Remember these things have been going bang , bang ,bang for 50 years.I went with Superiors and never looked back once my wallet healed. I have been described as a fussy s,o,b and they impressed me. Top notch. I know you didn't want to hear that but that would be my first choice. I'm sure the others like eci are good also. If you do a bit of research on the oems, you will discover that compared to the others out there, they may be your last choice. Sorry I offended any-body who just bought them, but the field reports are out there. Thank God for the after-market cylinder guys keeping the oems in line! Competition is good. Ron

[MikeB]

"I checked with two other people and decided that Ron is right". Anyway, I agree with Ron. I don't believe it's cost effective to rebuild the old cylinders unless they don't have a lot of time on them. I had one done on the old engine for my 65 and the cost was around $550, which basically included inspection, honing, valve guides, seat and valve grinding, rings (and yellow tag, of course). We put new Superiors on one of our A65's and seems to work well, but I believe they were around $3800 for a set of four, but that's your choice as to which kind you want to use. If you change or do any cylinder work, expect that you'll probably have to change some push rods to keep the deflated valve clearance within specs. I think they were about $40.00 each for the A65 and I think we changed about five. Some mechanics ignore checking the valve clearance and it comes back to haunt the owner.

[joea]

Ron,

Did you have to wait one year to get the cylinders or hopefully get them a bit faster? Am looking at the same thing that Nathan is and can work with the cost a lot easier than the downtime.

Thx,

Joe

[Ron Babos]

Mike: Correct on the pushrods. They are normally .030-.040 longer. Checked into what material the originals were , ordered the stuff and made my own. About 30 bucks for the eight. They are 4130 n, .375x.065 moly. They are not heat treated. If any-one wants the procedure to make them, email me. Mike is also correct in as far as mechanics not really paying much attention to this area of dry tappet clearance. Valve grinds , lifter grinds, cam grinds, cylinder deck machining , will throw a wrench into the whole works. Case in point, an engine I did for myself last year. The set-up was new Superiors, reground cam, reground lifters. The stanard pushrods produce an average of .140 clearance. Max is .110. The required length to get around ..030-.110 dry tappet clearance was .070 over pushrods in my engine. The .070 overs produced between .060-.080. Where the hell can you get them? No-where. That's why I had to custom make them. It's one of those unseen costs of the Superiors, but I still have no regrets on the purchase. Ron

[Ron Babos]

Joea: I believe it took about a month or so to get them. This was the A-65 Millenium kit. Now the C-85 mentioned may be a different situation. I can ask my supplier of Superiors and see what the deal is. Maybe there is a set on the shelf waiting for a good home. Ron

[Mike]

Ron, Gotta ask Is there some other type of maintenance program in Canada? Or how can you get away with making your own push rods? I understand why you're doing it, but if I tried that down here, I'd be a pen pal of the FAA's forever (doing the paper work shuffle). I know Canada has something called "Owner Maintenance", right?? Just curious.

Mike Berg

[Ron Babos]

Mike: Well it's kinda like this.... Yes there is owner maintenace , which you can do all your own work. Then there is the amateur category like your experimental. Then we have two ultralight categories and my Champ is in one of them. It is now called a Bright light 7, but is still a Champ in every way. This is why I can do some of the things that I've mentioned. Also some of the AMEs here are pretty good people and will let you work along with them, and even let you do some work yourself if it's a cerified Champ. If the work is done according to the book, they will sign it off, and away you go. I recently designed a spinner mount of the taperd shaft A-65 and the guy took the plane for the annual. The AME looked at it, liked it , and it's still on the aircraft. That's what I like, a mechanic with a brain. It definitely makes the annuals affordable. All this allows me to do all the things at a fraction of the cost, and not be stuck in that cerified rut. My plane is on a constant maintenance plan (my choice) and for me, it works out well. As you can tell, I like tinkering as much as flying. Ron

[Nathan K. Hammond]

Thanks for the input guys. Don Swords is helping me out with this engine and he said the same thing about oem's. They used them for a while but started having problems so a switch to ECI was made. Don's been pushing me to go ECI, and if there really is a long wait for Superior, I'll probably go with that. I just needed a second and third opinion.

I'm gonna try to see what the 1 year wait is with Superior. As for the difference in cost on C-85 cylinders: ECI $797, Superior $793, OEM $787. I pulled this from AERO for a base line, you might be able to get them cheaper.

Any other snags you can remember Ron? I hadn't even thought about the pushrods becoming a SNAFU

Thanks for the great info, keep it coming

nkh

[Ron Babos]

Nathan: The only other thing on the 65 was a slight mod to the baffling around one or two of the heads. Slightly more fin in the area where the exhaust port is. Other than that, direct replacement. Also about two pounds heavier than oems for the set. My supplier says that Superior is having problems with getting head castings fast enough. He also said he may have a set in about two months. Yup, two turns into six, then a year. I remember bugging him at least twice a week for them. He probably drove to the factory from Winnipeg and picked them up, just to get me off his back. I will email you with his contact info. Ron

[John Price]

I put Superiors on the A-65 in my L3 about 3 years
(200 hours) ago and have been really happy... I did that
against the recommendation of a bunch of "experts" that
thought I should just send the old Continentals out for
a rebuild... I had the new cylinders in the time it took to
ship them... Might be different for an 85 though... Seems
to me the cost was more like $1,000 and change though...

[joea]

John,

From what I hear, the only difference between the A-65 and C-85 cylinders is the exhaust valve is different and possibly one other change, but believe that the cylinder itself is the same.

Hope the time frame is still good. Was the $1000 price you mention per cylinder?

Thx,

JoeA

[Roger Anderson]

Mattituck has an A65 set of Superior cylinders for $3530 right now. I think Superior lists that set for about $3800. roger

[jim pacquin]

attn; mike, i recently purchased a very clean well maintained 85 champ. miliniums were installed approx 200 hrs ago. engine log states installed milinium cylinders, filled with mineral oil. thats it. ive flown it aboutr 15 hrs. aside from normal continental valve train noise it performs very well. am i ok? comp check shows 77 78 76 78. keep on flying? or what.?!

[Paul Agaliotis]

I,m just about to the point Nathan was 10 months ago. It,s time to get some cylinders.
We have a shop locally (Mid Valley) that I have been following their work. It appears that they have got it all together. The quality is quite good and turn-around is quick. The price is fair appx. $500-550 ea. ready to install.
My first choice in new cylinders would be Continental at about $780 ea. This is a difference of $1000 dollars. I,m having a hard time justifing the added costs. I,ve run alot of rebuilt cylinders as well as new and I dont see enough difference to spend the extra money.
I dont have much experence with the aftermarket cylinders. I,ve used a set of Millenium on an A65 and had a few problems.
When the cylinders arrived I found I needed C85/0200 intake elbows, no problem, but it came as a surprise, and were not included. The second problem was a bit more serious. After a few hundred hours of use I couldn,t control the oil in the combustion chamber. When I removed it, the piston pin plug had worn a groove in the cylinder wall. The area of the plug that index,s into the pin had worn into a football shape allowing the plug to flail about.
All in all the cylinders have been good for business, everyone who comes in says how great they look, sitting on the shelf, where they will stay. Paul