B&C alternator - STC for the C-85

john-ranger · Post by **john-ranger** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 01:15

Talked to Doug Combs Classic Aero - Gilbert, AZ. He has a STC for this 30amp Alternator.

I wanted to see if anyone has installed one on their aircraft. I'm thinking that when I install my B&C starter (which I have not received or installed yet), radio, intercom & soon to be purchased transponder, a full electrical system is probably what I need. Are there any legal issues/gotchas when you install a electrical system? I'm aware of the transponder/encoder ones.

Post by **joea** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:28

Installing the generator or alternator will also decrease the value of your airplane. There are a lot of people out there who do not want to have to have a radio or x-ponder on the airplane and once this is installed you have to have one FOREVER.

There is nothing wrong with a total loss battery system that a good solar panel will not cure, especially with your living in Vegas where its sunny 350 days a year. I would sure look at this long before thinking about putting a alternator on the ship. Its just not needed on a Chief or Champ IMHO...

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 21:35

once this is installed you have to have one FOREVER

What is this statement based on? I'm considering putting 73E on an electrical diet....

Post by **joea** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 07:36

Once the airplane has a generator or alternator installed in it, and a 337 or associated paperwork filed with the FAA for this installation, the airplane MUST forever afterwards have a radio and transponder installed in it.

You can take the generator or alternator off at a later date but the radio installation, or one like it must stay in the plane the rest of its life.

You can put a wind generator, or a total loss battery system but the moment you put an engine driven generator system on the bird (and file the paperwork) its going to have a radio system the rest of its life.

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:22

[quote="joea"]Once the airplane has a generator or alternator installed in it, and a 337 or associated paperwork filed with the FAA for this installation, the airplane MUST forever afterwards have a radio and transponder installed in it.

quote]

Hey Joe. Unless there has been a very recent change to the FARs, I think you are mistaking that with the fact that an aircraft with an engine driven electrical system is no longer exempt from transponder requirements in that airspace in which a transponder is required. There are many aircraft with electrical systems that don't have radios or transponders, my previous Ercoupe having been one of them occasionally. rog

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:55

Rog,
The FAR 91.215 has all of the requirements for the transponder. It looks like it was amended in 2001 to include aircraft that had electrical systems installed at a later date.
Paul

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:09

Thanks Paul. As usual, clear as mud.

Joe, is that the reg you had in mind? How has it been used to disallow removal of an electrical system?

I don't see how that could be interpreted to mean I'm not allowed to yank my electrical system out, but I'm not as imaginative as FAA lawyers. Anyone??

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:20

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Rog,
The FAR 91.215 has all of the requirements for the transponder. It looks like it was amended in 2001 to include aircraft that had electrical systems installed at a later date.
Paul

Hi Paul. Yea, 91.215 is the section that does contain the requirements for the need and operation of a transponder, including the airspace in which a transponder is required. And that section is specific in that only an aircraft in which an engine driven electrical system was not originally installed, or at a later date installed, are exempt from those transponder requirements. However, and assuming I didn't misunderstand what Joe said, 91.215, and no other FAR of which I'm aware, requires that an aircraft with an electrical system, regardless of whether it was original or later added, have either a radio or transponder installed. That equipment is only required if the pilot wishes to operate in airspace requiring either. And again, I may have misunderstood.

Post by **joea** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:23

Dusty,

To tell the truth I have never looked it up, but heard it from several sources so was just passing it along.

After Paul posted the FAR, here it is and it sure is worded to restrict removing things after they have been installed. Once the generator or alternator is installed in a plane, you are pretty limited. In Aeronca's that have never had one installed we can simply say "NORDO aircraft" and not have to fuss with a lot of this.

Joe

~~~~

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted --

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider -- --

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 13:53

When this FAR was introduced it had a blanket exemption for aircraft without originally certified electrical systems. This kind of threw a lot of people off when you had an electrical system that was a piece of optional equipment. The FAA amended the FAR with the inclusion of the " or subsequently added" phrase. My interpretation is that if you have an electrical system,or have added one, you will need to have an operational transponder.
Paul

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 13:58

I realize they don't want you flying around transponderless if you have a place to plug one in, but I'm having a hard time seeing how any of that could be used to prevent me from "decertifying" my electrical system.

Has the FAA prevented people from removing an electrical system and transponder, and if so, how?

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 14:26

Dusty,
I don't know of any case where the FAA has caused a big deal about this. If the Type Certificate is modified per a STC it would also need a supporting document that removed the STC. This information would be available in the FAA records office in Okie City. I don't know if an Airworthiness Inspector has quick access to this information. Not many aircraft of our type still conform to the aircraft records on file.
Paul

Dusty · Post by **Dusty** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 14:49

My electrical system was added via the Wagner CCM/O-235 conversion, which says something vague like "...and bolt on some electrical stuff if you want to - or not - whatever..."

(I REALLY like that STC!)

So, does that change anything? Can I simply elect to "uninstall" that (optional) part of the STC? I'll look, but I'm not sure if there's even a 337 in my logs for the electrical. I know I have one for my skytech starter, and probably for my power-hungry transponder, so there is a record of having an electrical system.

What is the procedure for "uninstalling" other approved mods? Say one wished to remove VGs - is this a valid analogy? It seems to me like it should be, but I'm blessed to not be a lawyer!

Roger Anderson · Post by **Roger Anderson** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 17:43

Paul Agaliotis wrote: My interpretation is that if you have an electrical system,or have added one, you will need to have an operational transponder.
Paul

That only says that an aircraft with an engine driven electrical system needs an operational transponder if you wish to enter airspace requiring a transponder. The most commonly used exemption that us non electric persons generally is flight into the 30 mile mode C veil surrounding class B airspace. We can do it without a transponder. Add an electrical system, we are no longer exempt...if we wish to fly into that type of airspace. Just the fact that your aircraft has an electrical system does not require that it have either a radio or transponder. Installing either would be the owners choice based on what type airspace they might wish to fly into someday.

Post by **joea** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 17:56

Dusty,

My gut feeling is that you need to get a copy of the original 337 and logbook entry and peruse both in depth. If it says "installed engine, starter and generator on airframe" as per the 337 then you are screwed.

On the other hand, if it fails to mention any accessories like a generator then you might get by with removing it.

IMHO It all depends on what OKC has in their files AND what is in your logbook regarding the installation.

Joe A