Service Letter mods

Post by **joea** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 13:59

Have gotten an email from someone asking about something I could use some help with.

This gent has a Aeronca that had a Service letter accomplished way back in the 1950's. At that time the engine was also changed to a 85 hp version.

The paperwork was all sent into the FAA and approved. The data-tag was not stamped -CONV not was the type changed in the FAA records. Why I do not know.

Is it mandatory to do this? Can you simply do the service letter mods, upgrade the engine with a 337 and remain a 7AC or 11AC? I note that both the Aeronca service letters for the Chief and Champ say that the data-tag "must" be restamped but evidently the FAA did not do this on this plane.

What is happening now is that the owner is getting some heat from his A&P/IA that the airplane is now totally illegal and that they have to call in the FAA to get the plane re-certified. After what happened to Mike Berg with his wing ribs and pop rivets and the FAA, this could ground the bird for a year or longer and trying to find other options.

Thx,

Joe

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 14:19

Joe,
I believe it's up to the person (AI ??) making the modification to have the plate restamped. I'm looking at my STC from Wagner to install a 0200 in the 7AC (or L16 in my case) and it says" Must have current weight and balance sheet, current equipment list. Aircraft registration plate must be restamped with proper model designation and the letters "CONV" added. Do not change the serial number". So, to me, that kind of alludes to the person making the modification or possibly in this case checking that the modification meets all specifications, making a log book entry and restamping the plate.

Might be wrong, but I would just think it's a matter of restamping the plate with the correct information and "CONV". Sounds simple enough to me but I should know nothing is ever simple

.

Pretty sure you can get a new one from Champion if needed.

Mike Berg

Mnflyer · Post by **Mnflyer** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 15:31

I agree with Mike, it was the owner / A&P IA who was to restamp the Data Plate not the FAA, as an A&P and former IA to me its a simple matter of stamping the Data plate with the conv on the Data plate and the plane is good to go. As far as the FAA the plane remains a 7AC , thats what mine is in the FAA records from 1946 thur 1956 when it was converted to a 7DC with an A-85-8 and the same in 1965 when converted to a C-85-12 and in 1986 when STC'd to the 0-200. It is now a 7AC conv.

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:34

The data plate is stamped CONV according to the STC provisions and the aircraft remains 7AC, 11AC and etc., as far as the FAA is concerned.
My 7AC has the Lasher aconversion to 85hp, it is registered with the FAA as a 7AC, but in keeping with the STC the data plate reads 7AC-Conv.
Very simple, it is in the directions of the STC. It should not be a problem with an IA that knows old airplanes or can read.

Doug

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:38

Forgot to mention not all engine conversions have a data plate change.

Doug

Post by **joea** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:45

Gents,

I have to confess something here. The person who emailed me was the guy who bought my Chief. He just emailed me with a long list of problems.

Top on the list was the "this airplane is illegal and should not be flying. The mods to make it a 11BC have been done in 1956 and no paperwork has been filed, and the FAA did not change the registration so its illegal and cannot be flown."

Well ladies and gents, everyone I talk with tells me the same thing, that they have sent the paperwork into the FAA and they do nothing with the model number, and the airplane is legal and flyable. The data-tag that I got with the plane did not have the -CONV stamped in it, so I left it alone. Its been through 4 IA's and several A&P's, none of which had any issue with it, yet now the new owner is nit-picking it apart.

To make it worse he has now emailed me asking for suggestions and saying that he feels that he needs to contact the FAA and have one of their inspectors come and check the airplane out. As well he has a new A&P who has ripped the logbooks apart trying to find problems with the paperwork and airplane (Oh my God, it has a Brackett air filter on it, and no 337 supporting its installation, so the whole airplane is now illegal) and my gut feeling is that the A&P is either brand new, has no experience with antiques or sees his house payment being paid for all of 2009 on this airplane.

I just emailed him telling him of Mike Berg's experience with the wing ribs and the FAA that ACA approved yet still took almost a year to get approval to use pop rivets, so if he wants to ground the plane for a very long time, its his baby right now.

Joe A

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 22:17

Joe,
I could possibly see the issue with the Brackett air filter even though about half the Champs and the Chiefs in the world have them but I suspect he has a AI who doesn't understand the data tag and quite possibly a owner who is reading too much in it (and looking for other issues). Let's face it, a lot of these 60 year old aircraft have some warts even though they are still 'airworthy' and often the log books (comic books) are filled with wrong, sketchy and misinformation. If it comes down to it and you want to get involved further ask the IA to show you where it says the data tag cannot be restamped. I think you can prove otherwise.

Hope it works out for you!

Mike Berg

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 22:29

Joe-

Not knowing the circumstances and the date--this change could have been made before the permanent type certificate and and old 337 would be approved data. Sounds like the economy is catching up and he may have an A&P/IA that is new to the Aeronca world..If the word Conv was not included in the STC paper work or the field approval the word does not have to be on the data plate. It may have been a one time field approval. 1956 was along time ago.

Doug

Mikek · Post by **Mikek** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 08:04

joea wrote:----(Oh my God, it has a Brackett air filter on it, and no 337 supporting its installation, so the whole airplane is now illegal) ----
Joe A

Joe, looks like all your flight time that you logged, EAA rides and any BFR's taken or given are also not legal.

They need to step back, go through the FAA CD, logs and the service letter. If something needs updated the AI should be able to cleanup the paperwork.

Mike K

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 09:11

Joe,
I'm sure you've researched the CD and paperwork over the years. Is there some record of how the engine was installed, STC, field approval, 337, etc? I'm not sure how things went in 1956 but you'd think there's some paperwork involved.

Mike Berg

David Johnson · Post by **David Johnson** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 09:25

Joe, there is more too this than meets the eye. If his mechanic cannot stamp the data plate he needs to turn in his license. You keep your chin up. There are not many FAA inspectors out there who really know these planes. Also, there is not an airplane anywhere that could not be red tagged for something. I respect your trying to be absolutely correct with the paperwork, but in the real world it just ain't happening. I too have a perfectionist attitude, but learned long ago the plane was more important than the paperwork. You can survive bad paperwork. He needs to change the air filter, stamp the plate an drive on. My 7AC conversion still shows 7AC in the database, but shows C85 for the engine. If he calls the FAA, he looses a lot more than anyone else. If you need expert witnesses, anyone here will be glad to help. Soapbox OFF, David J.

Jon B. · Post by **Jon B.** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:31

Been there; done that; didn't get the tee-shirt.

The Champion I used to own was a 7FC which was converted to 'conventional' gear in ~1990.

The data plate still showed "7FC" as the model. I wanted to install skis (Federal 1500) that were listed on the 7EC type certificate, so asked the FSDO guy - a very reasonable dude - about a field approval. He, in turn, asked me why we didn't just change the model number to a 7EC, so the skis could simply be installed with a log entry. Why, indeed?

With the help of a nearby IA, we met at the hangar, he looked through the logs, perused the 337 for the conversion, signed a new C of A, had the IA stamp the plate and, Presto! She's a "7FC Conv." and legal for any 7EC optional equipment. It took about three hours end to end.

Jon

Captgrumps · Post by **Captgrumps** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:52

Joe--

He needs to find another mechanic that knows airplanes. Or is it his bank? It is a tough world out there.

Doug